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Old December 21st, 2008, 10:15 AM   #1
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Paypal is a big bully who won't play by any rules of business

Bloody Paypal.

I rue the day I didn't listen to Ron Kilby. Why didn't I listen to him. They have screwed us around for the last week, being totally unreasonable and overbearing.

They couldn't understand why we were having so much activity right out of the gate. I explained to them that I had been a Paypal member under my own email for three years, and that this was a separate thing altogether, but the same person.

Without a phone call, they tuned off the account so that we couldn't accept any more orders, and stopped us from being able to transfer funds.

They demanded Proof of ID, I gave them my NSW Drivers license, they asked for Proof of Location I gave them our latest electricity bill, and our family mobile bill.

Then they demanded to see the invoice for the Expresscards, along with specific contact information, which as you can understand I reluctantly provided.

Then they started asking for shipping info. This was last week, when we hadn't shipped anything. I explain myself time and time again, voice calls and emails. Nothing seems to penetrate their thick skulls.

I tell them to look up my website, and do a timecapsule thing that it's been up for ten years. No difference.

So I ask them what is it you need to allow us to access our funds. No-one seems to know.

Then they demand to see the tracking details of five customers taken at random. Two were already using courier, but we upgraded three more so we had specific courier tracking information, uploaded to their site yet again.

Then they come back and want five more, and ask for more information on proof of location. Bloody hell, we bought that house in 2001. What more bloody proof do you need, do they want to see the title to the house?

So I sent back ALL the tracking numbers for ALL the orders we sent out yesterday, so they can't ask for any more of those. It took us all afternoon and evening to scan, enhance, and upload to their site, and here I am again 11.45 at night, stuffing around with bloody Paypal again.

And all this time, they have our money, and I've had to fund from my credit card all the packaging, freight, and insurance, even though you kind people have already paid for it.

I'm sending out everything, to keep my commitments to you, and I'm very rapidly going completely broke, even thought there are plenty of funds to cover it.

When I got another refusal for them to stop limiting my account this morning, I snapped. I mean literally snapped.

I told them the following... (their program strips out numbers for whatever reason)


"Please expedite review process"

Today I uploaded copies of Proof of shipping of all five Transction Id you gave me. They were forward orders, that, along with all orders to ## December ####, shipped
yesterday ex Hong Kong.

#). You have my NSW drivers license.

#). You have our latest Power Bill.

#). You have copy of Mobile phone bill.

#). You have a copy of Proforma Invoice, and Final invoice.

#). You have the contact details, website, of our Supplier.


WHAT STUFFING ELSE DO YOU NEED. I NEED THAT CASHFLOW TO ORGANISE THE NEXT SHIPMENT.

SO WHILE SOME PERSON SITS THERE SMUGLY ASKING FOR ONE MORE PIECE OF INFORMATION, YOU ARE KILLING ME.

I HAVE BEEN REASONABLE UP TO NOW, BUT I NO LONGER WANT TO HEAR FROM YOUR STAFF MEMBER, I WANT A SUPERVISOR FROM YOUR COMPANY TO CALL ME
IN PERSON HERE AT THE EATON HOTEL IN HONG KONG AND EXPLAIN TO ME EXACTLY WHAT TIME
TODAY THE ACCOUNT GOES BACK ON LINE.

TODAY.

MY NEXT CALL IN IS TO TODAY TONIGHT, CURRENT AFFAIR, ALONG WITH DFAT, WHO I WILL ACCUSE YOU OF CHOKING EXPORTS.'

IF I DO NOT SEE MY ACCOUNT UNFROZEN TODAY, I AM GOING TO CALL ONE OF MY FRIENDS IN CANBERRA, WHO KNOWS THE CHIEF OF STAFF FOR SIMON CREAN THE MINISTER OF TRADE, FOR AUSTRALIAN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

I KNOW HE WILL TAKE MY CALL, WHEN I TELL HIS CHIEF OF STAFF WHAT IS GOING ON.

THEN YOUR COMPANY CAN FIND OUT WHAT THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT DOES TO COMPANY'S THAT STUFF UP OUR EXPORT MARKET.

THOSE GUYS AREN'T NICE LIKE ME.

DO IT. DO IT NOW.


So they send back another inane email, we are reviewing your case and will be in touch in due course.

IN DUE COURSE, ARE YOU FOR REAL.

PAYPAL YOU ARE HISTORY.

WE WILL NOT ACCEPT PAYPAL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE EVER AGAIN.

WE CAN ONLY ACCEPT DIRECT TRANSFER UNTIL I CAN GET BACK TO SYDNEY TO SETUP QUICKBOOKS AND THEIR MERCHANT SERVICES.

If I lose your order because you will only use Paypal, I tell you I will truly regret that, because we think we have a product that is purpose built to do the job. And I want those who are going to get in the next few days to be the judge of it not us.

I want your order, but I'm going to go broke to send it, I'm really sorry about that, I truly apologise. We have done nothing other than try and help solve a problem that was driving us crazy as well. Paypal has done their level best at every turn to frustrate and stifle us.

I would like to have a nice face to face with PAYPAL.

A friend of my wife's is a journalist for one of the large papers here in Sydney, and writes one of the computer technology columns. When Martha told her she gave us the private work number of the head of Ebay in Australia, (wait for Monday morning Sydney time), along with the mobile number of Ebays Public Relations here in Australia.

Public Relations, are they kidding. I think Im going to show them what a Public Relations nightmare looks like.

They obviously have never taken on someone from Ngati Maniapoto before ( my area in New Zealand), we were never conquered by the British, we never give in, NEVER.

Boy are the in for a fight. Someone's going to get a black eye, and Ive got the Australian government covering my back, (I hope).

So dear readers, as usual another great big long rant.


On a lighter note, I've started blogging, and I bought 6 different memory types today to test. I'll post those real soon. As soon as my blood stops boiling. could be a while.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 10:56 AM   #2
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I know you must be pissed but maybe still it would be wiser to keep proper tone with their customer service, altough they aren't much helping you. Yelling to the people who are just trying to do their job, as they have been instructed by their superiors, will make them lesser eager to help you. I believe it would sound more professional if you stayed calm and kept them posted of your own actions like contacting the chamber of commerce for investigations, contacting lawyer for the problems they've caused to your business... threatening to do something is always bad, so it would be better to state thing as you've already had done them. Perhaps then they'd have more interest of protecting their public image. I bet they've started this sort of actions innitially because they've probably got some complainments from their customers who've got ripped of by someone. Now the circle closes as their "customer protective" actions actually start to harm customers.

Awful situation, I hope you get it sorted out.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 10:57 AM   #3
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Ironically PayPal has been doing this for years and the media around the world has not raked them over the coals for this.

In PayPal's mind they're protecting the consumer . . . by throwing small business under the train.

It's non uncommon to see people who sell on EBay but state they refuse to accept PayPal.

I has one experience with PayPal where we moved our small business/home and they flatly refused to move our bank account and access address. We eventually set up another bank account, had it certified and they transfered the funds from the old bank to the new bank.

Tuomas, I guess you never dealt with PayPal. They are not "just doing their job." Humans do jobs. These people have NO CAPACITY to understand simple logic. They are automatons and deserve to be treated like the dysfunctional machinery that they are. When they act like humans, they'll deserve to be treated like humans. They have NO CAPACITY for sympathy, empathy or any other human trait.

Last edited by Craig Seeman; December 21st, 2008 at 11:34 AM.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 11:05 AM   #4
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Ross, I have been through a couple of start up ventures myself. The entrepreneurial experience would not be complete without a last minute crisis that delays a launch and causes blood to boil.

Fear not, as I think most everyone who has placed an order so far understands the nature of your young company and product. There will always be a few glitches when lurching out of the starting gate.

I'd try not to burn too many bridges at PayPal, while quietly arranging a preferable option through QuickBooks or whatever. Soon enough those funds will be freed, and your days of putting business expenses on personal credit cards will be over.

As someone said, this inefficiency is the price we all pay for all those Nigerian email scammers (my apologies to any Nigerian email scammers I may have offended).
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Old December 21st, 2008, 11:11 AM   #5
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Amazing isn't it. Ross, do what you need to do. Get your new stuff set up, and I'll gladly order with you. The work you've done to make this solution viable is a credit to you, and your business.

I feel very comfortable giving you and people like you, my business. I can wait a few weeks to order.

-P
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Old December 21st, 2008, 11:32 AM   #6
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I endorse that. Will place order as soon as you are sorted out. I have been caught in the PAYPAL net of no common sense in the past. I now do my very best to avoid them when ever possible.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 11:47 AM   #7
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They did similar things to me last xmas and stopped my account just at the critical time, they also hung onto several payments for over a month and copped the interest for themselves.

I actually spoke to someone and said I could do anything they wanted to verify my details over the phone or e-mail but that wasnt good enough as they had sent in the post some verification codes and they couldnt over ride them.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 12:05 PM   #8
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I do wish you luck, but my experience tells me paypal will win.

I have been a user almost since day one and my own site still uses paypal - every single day. I vowed 2009 is the year I break away - go here Welcome to PayPalSucks.com, PayPal Lawsuit, PayPal Alternative, PayPal Complaints, Fraud & Evil behind the PayPal system!

An ex-employee of paypal spilled the beans on the above website about the Mafia management tactics of paypal.

I lost $1200 with paypal last year in just one transaction and had to use an attorney - did I get my money back ... no!!
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Old December 21st, 2008, 12:43 PM   #9
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Hang in there

Ross, you have my sincere sympathy. If it's any help, one day you'll look back on this whole experience - and throw up.

Like Dante's Inferno, there are 6 levels of PayPal Hell. You have reached level 3. Remember that, by design, they hold all the cards. You have to waste days trying to talk to a human, only to learn the "humans" are programmed to be annoying, demanding and unresponsive. That's ok - that's their job. Yours is to keep going. Your only weapon is your tenacity. Stay the course. Make it your hobby to make their lives miserable. Have a couple of XXXX Golds and enjoy the process. Document everything.

Next time I'm in Sydney, I'm treating you to a nice steak and grog. Attached photo is my last trip. I'm 3rd from the right. Harley riders = instant friendship anywhere :)

Best.
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Paypal is a big bully who won't play by any rules of business-rk-sydney.jpg  

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Old December 21st, 2008, 01:17 PM   #10
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Hi Ross!

Im piping in behind Mr. Ford & Mr. Rawlings, Im ready to place my order whenever you are properly sorted!! Youve done a good job on this, a week or two of back orders due to general paypalness wont change that!

Merry Christmas from Sweden!

Magnus
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Old December 21st, 2008, 01:21 PM   #11
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Ross.
I'll send cash or cheque if you want, you sound like a trustworthy guy, you're hardly going to bump someone for a few pounds/dollars and risk it being shouted about on this forum.
If i send you some money then i want you to have it, not paypal.

Paul.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 02:37 PM   #12
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I'm with Ross. If he has the clout to get it in papers etc then he should. paypal has been doing this sort of thing for years with no comeback. Playing Mr Nice Guy will only make them think that they can keep getting away with it.

NZ may not have been run by the British, but I'm sure as hell on his side in this fight!
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Old December 21st, 2008, 02:43 PM   #13
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Hi Ross, I'm behind you 100%. I placed an order yesterday and now I'm sorry I did. I am looking forward to using the gear you sell but if I had known you are getting jerked around by PayPal I would have waited. The amazing thing is the money was sucked from my account right away and it should go right to you and if it doesn't then that fraud on PayPal's part. It seems they should and can be prosecuted for fraud. It seems like you have gone all the way to satisfy their inquiries so they should do as they said they would when you signed up.

I'm with you Ross, if you cancel my order I will reorder and understand.

Thanks for the heads up.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 03:05 PM   #14
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Ross, PP took my money from my credit card. Let me know if you receiced it.
If not, I'll tell my CC company to take the money back from PP. They do that
if the money transfer has not been performed properly. No further questions
asked. Very easy. All in all, no worries. PP is a money clearing instrument.
they are not allowed to put their moral upon us or you for that matter.

Contact Visa and MasterCard Australia. They'll be glad to help you.
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Old December 21st, 2008, 11:59 PM   #15
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Ross, consider this instead: Google Checkout - Merchants
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