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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old January 9th, 2009, 06:08 PM   #1
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Jvc xdcam ex ???!!!

JVC announced a new camera at CES
JVC Professional Features page

Tech Universe : Weblog

JVC page doesn't mention XDCAM EX but does say 35mbps MPEG-2 Long GOP recording to SDHC. The blog says it is XDCAM EX. JVC had made an announcement some months back that they were coming out with an attachment that would allow recording to SxS cards.

Chris Hurd did post this announcement a few months back
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-v...-xdcam-ex.html
But I don't think people where expecting to see a camera using the codec at CES.

It'll be interesting to get confirmation on the XDCAM EX codec but unless they came up with yet another variant . . . . although they make clear this camera records to MOV. BTW This camera is by no means an EX competitor. It's three 1/4" chips and they announced it at CES.

I thought it was noteworthy to post here since it may involve expansion of the use of the codec and the use of SDHC to record to for 35mbps MPEG-2 Long GOP
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Old January 10th, 2009, 05:06 AM   #2
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Given that it interfaces with JVC's SxS device I'm pretty sure that they are using the EX codec.

This new camera records to both .mov and to what I can only assume is .m2v or .mp2 (since they haven't stated directly).

Certainly looks interesting. Especially their shoulder mount variant. Although it seems that the chips may be low resolution.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 05:18 AM   #3
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It almost looks as if these cameras might have been something like the Sony V series equivalents.

I think Sony maybe trying to make XDCAM EX codec the next Beta covering both Betamax and Betacam. JVC was a big one behind VHS in that battle. It seems like this time is XDCAM vs AVC. I'm going to guess Canon will be choosing between the two.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 05:43 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Craig Seeman View Post
It seems like this time is XDCAM vs AVC.
I'm not sure it's as simple as that, since Sony themselves seem to be going for AVC-HD for their consumer cameras, XDCAM-EX for their more professional products. The headline differences between the two are that for comparable picture quality XDCAM-EX has a higher bitrate but doesn't need too much power to edit, AVC-HD has a lower bitrate, but really needs transcoding for ease of editing.

I suspect Sonys thinking is that those with consumer cameras probably won't do that much editing anyway, and more pro users won't be worried about a bit more data storage compared to ease and speed and editing, and I think they're probably right.

And it's quite possible that Canon will apply the same logic - AVC-HD for the consumer end, XDCAM-EX for the prosumer.

All of which must be giving Panasonic a lot of very hard thinking to do. At the consumer end they have the same strategy. But the new JVC camera must be coming up very head to head with Panasonics 151, similar price, and recording to SDHC cards native. I'm not sure about the JVC 1/4" chips, but at this price point XDCAM-EX v AVC-HD must be a big attraction to the JVC camera over the Panasonic.

The increasing use of SDHC cards has shown that they are perfectly capable of handling recording rates at least up to 50Mbs. Doesn't that mean that even if Panasonic couldn't bring themselves to use any form of MPEG2, that AVC-Intra 50 would be a far better option for such a camera?
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Old January 10th, 2009, 08:48 AM   #5
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It's almost as if there's VHS vs Beta again.
VHS won the consumer marker over Betamax but Betacam and derivatives held the pro market for years.

Keep in mind the "best" doesn't always win and people will certainly argue what's best. Regardless of what's better, Sony is maneuvering to take the pro (and prosumer) market by codec.

Don't forget Sony now has 50mbps 4:2:2.

BTW one difference between "then and now" is the separation between codec and media.
With SDHC and now SDXC announced that media seems to be the thing that kills both tape and hard drive recording for cameras. SD card variants wins.

I can't help but think SxS, P2 and maybe even XDCAM disc are on their tail. For Sony it's no big deal since the XDCAM EX codec lives happily on SDHC. I can't help but think Panasonic is in a more awkward market situation with P2, DVCProHD, AVC, SDHC.

David, you do point accurately to AVC and consumer cameras but maybe there was motive in JVC making their announcement at CES. It'll be interesting if there's any move to put MPEG2 Long GOP into consumer cameras in the up coming months. There's no sign of it yet though. So maybe AVC becomes "VHS" while MPEG2 Long GOP becomes "Betacam." Consumer LIKE convenience though and your post indicates something about that to regards MPEG2 Long GOP vs AVC.

All in all it's why I think this JVC announcement is a big deal. It's not the killer camera but it is the biggest single mark on the map. JVC's announcement really is a big indicator actually for Sony and XDCAM EX which is why it's worthy of the Sony EX forum.

As for DVInfo it might create some forum havoc. With the JVC HM100 and the HM700 as well, they may end up looking at this forum at first as they have their first foray into the XDCAM EX codec.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 08:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
regards MPEG2 Long GOP vs AVC
Don't forget that AVC is in two flavours. AVC inter and AVC Intra. So Panasonics cameras like the HMC151 are using AVC interframe which is predictive just like MPEG2.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 10:56 AM   #7
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I was at the LA Final Cut Pro Users Group (LAFCPUG) Supermeet where they announced this new camcorder, the JVC GY-HM100. As a fan of the workflow of the XDCAM EX codec, I was happy to see another camcorder using it.

I also have (I'm testing) a Panasonic HMC150. For a Mac user, using Final Cut Pro, the AVCHD workflow at this time, in my opinion is quite a bit more of a pain than the EX1 workflow. The HMC150's recording quality is very nice under good conditions, and the 21mb/s AVCHD PH MPEG 4 mode quality is on par with the EX1's HQ 35 mb/sec Mpeg 2 quality.

However, in being able to immediately view the AVCHD files, at least on the Mac, and get it into a usable state for editing, requires a transcode to Prores, then another transcode into something smaller to be able to look at it on a variety of systems without stuttering. The AVCHD to Prores transcode is time consuming, perhaps about 1/2 or 3/4 of the time of the original footage, and then the resulting Prores files are 7 times the size of the original AVCHD footage (see this post for details: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/panasonic...hd-prores.html)

Wheras the Sony EX1 files are basically just wrapped in QT, requiring the time of a copy and are immediately playable in full res.

If Panasonic (or somebody) could merely get together with Apple and produce a good native Quicktime codec for their AVCHD, we'd all be better off. At least give us the option of native editing, and we can then decide if our hardware is up to it. As technology improves, such as faster processors, and utilizing the Graphics processing power of higher end graphics cards, AVCHD real time editing will indeed be viable, but for now it's a big pain. However, now - reality check: what is the trade off? AVCHD is really just saving about 30% of file size over the XDCAM EX codec for equivalent quality. I really don't care about that if I then have to then create files 8x the original file size to use it.

So this new JVC is quite attractive if the image quality is close to the EX1, as a B camera utilizing the same workflow as the Sony EX's. In fact it's even easier as it saves as .mov files - no XDCam Transfer utility required to get it into FCP, just drag the .movs over.

There's another thread in the JVC section on dvinfo about this new JVC camcorder using XDCAM EX codecs.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 11:07 AM   #8
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That is the thing that has put me off the Panasonic cameras. With XDCAM from the beginning Sony thought through the entire workflow. As one of the first in this country to use XDCAM I was amazed to see how quickly Sony reacted and added new features to software like PDZ-1. Really useful features too.

Panasonic on the other hand appears to just make the camera and then leave things at the post end for the owner to figure out on their own. The P2 software for example never had anything close to the capabilities of the XDCAM Transfer or PDZ-1. Everything had to be transcoded by third party software.

My objections against P2 in the past haven't just been aimed at media cost, but at the entire workflow and capabilities of the system. Tapeless camera systems need to go beyond codec issues. Sony's system has, and it sounds as though JVC are following their lead.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 12:01 PM   #9
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My experiences with consumer AVCHD suggests to me that it's going to take a fairly big improvement in computers and software to edit it natively. Even with quad and octo core computers with masses of ram editing AVCHD is painful. Even though I have a big powerful MacPro workstation I still need the ability to edit on location with a laptop. I can do this quite comfortably with XDCAM.

The JVC cameras are a welcome addition and make an interesting statement about the popularity of FCP and Mac's for editing.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 01:12 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Craig Seeman View Post
I can't help but think SxS, P2 and maybe even XDCAM disc are on their tail. For Sony it's no big deal since the XDCAM EX codec lives happily on SDHC.
I don't see much long term future for P2, and it's worth noting that with the Panasonic range you either get a P2 camera or an SDHC camera, end of story, that's how you have to use it.

With Sony, get an SxS camera and you can either use it with SxS cards, or SDHC cards via an adaptor. If you've got lots of money, you may prefer to use SxS cards for faster downloading or whatever - a camera like the EX gives the option.

As for disc, that may live on for longer term archiving, as data on a flash card may not last anything like as many years as data on an XDCAM disc
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I can't help but think Panasonic is in a more awkward market situation with P2, DVCProHD, AVC, SDHC.
Well, DVCProHD is on it's way out, and already being superceded by AVC-Intra 100 in higher end cameras. AVC-HD/SDHC makes sense for consumers, but as already said, it's far from ideal for the prosumer market, far more difficult in post than MPEG2. As for P2, it's showing it's age in that it's not being natively supported in most modern notebooks - you can plug an ExpressCard straight in, P2 needs an adaptor.
Quote:
It'll be interesting if there's any move to put MPEG2 Long GOP into consumer cameras in the up coming months. There's no sign of it yet though. So maybe AVC becomes "VHS" while MPEG2 Long GOP becomes "Betacam." Consumer LIKE convenience though ........
I don't really see a lot of point, unless a lot of consumers take to editing their recordings in a big way. (Which is not my experience.) If they don't do much editing, all MPEG2 offers (at the same basic quality) is less recording time/card. Equally, a lot of equipment (esp Panasonic TVs) will take SDHC cards and replay AVC-HD files off them directly, and I think many consumers would rather have this sort of convienience than easy editing.
Quote:
All in all it's why I think this JVC announcement is a big deal. It's not the killer camera but it is the biggest single mark on the map. JVC's announcement really is a big indicator actually for Sony and XDCAM EX which is why it's worthy of the Sony EX forum.
In the prosumer market I fully agree. I see this camera as competing directly with the HMC151, and one big advantage it must have is ease of editing.

JVC seem as secretive about pixel counts as Panasonic tend to be, but I'd put a large bet that it will be much less than the EX, and probably about the same resolution as the 151. Given the 1/4" chips, that's probably sensible from a sensitivity point of view.

What will be interesting is what Canon do next. I'm sure something solid state can't be far off from them, and what will be of interest is what codec and memory that uses. My guess would be XDCAM-HD onto either SxS or SDHC cards, but Compact Flash may be another possibility.
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Old January 11th, 2009, 05:42 PM   #11
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I was at the Final Cut Pro users group and also was happy to see that they are using the XDCamEX codec, and basically using the same SDHC card adapter system that people on this forum have pioneered for the EX. I wonder if the card adapter will be interchangeable.

Whether the camera will be as good as an Ex-1 remains to be seen. It is definitely smaller and will certainly have a smaller chip so don't hold your breath on equal performance.

Its slated for April release. I wonder if Sony is able to do a firmware upgrade that allows a directly recording Quicktime files as well. That was very very cool.
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Old January 11th, 2009, 06:59 PM   #12
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JVC HM-100 is 1/4" CCD and HM-700 is 1/3" CCD. At this point I saw no mention of overcranking (S&Q motion) either on the JVC site. Otherwise the HM-100 sure looks it could have been a sort of Sony V1 equivalent. It kind of makes it difficult for Sony to come out with a competing model below the EX1 though. I have a hunch Sony will be moving in the other direction.

I'm going to guess they'll be an EX-5 announced at NAB and it may have one or more of the following improvements: true shoulder mount, 2/3" CMOS chips, 50mbps 4:2:2 codec. Another possible feature is a "hybrid" camera that can record to either card or XDCAM disc. Another possibility is overcrank to 120fps. We might be seeing an EX-5 and an EX-7 depending on which and what combination of the above happen.

What I'm thinking is JVC and Sony camera may seem somewhat "complimentary" as JVC will also more to replace the GYHD 100/200/250 series as JVC will want the EX codec in their higher end cameras. JVC cameras will be CCD giving the user the choice between CCD but smaller or CMOS and bigger chips.

BTW I generally think "as good as" is not a good choice of words when it comes to camera comparisons. There will be different directions and designs and different people will choose different cameras for different reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
I was at the Final Cut Pro users group and also was happy to see that they are using the XDCamEX codec, and basically using the same SDHC card adapter system that people on this forum have pioneered for the EX. I wonder if the card adapter will be interchangeable.

Whether the camera will be as good as an Ex-1 remains to be seen. It is definitely smaller and will certainly have a smaller chip so don't hold your breath on equal performance.

Its slated for April release. I wonder if Sony is able to do a firmware upgrade that allows a directly recording Quicktime files as well. That was very very cool.
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Old January 12th, 2009, 01:32 AM   #13
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As a P2 card contents 4 SD cards in raid - maybe the new SDXC cards will be adapted by panasonic in their P2 cards and give the P2 cards the speed needed in the future for 1080/50P. Lets hope.
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Old January 12th, 2009, 04:17 AM   #14
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As a P2 card contents 4 SD cards in raid - maybe the new SDXC cards will be adapted by panasonic in their P2 cards and give the P2 cards the speed needed in the future for 1080/50P. Lets hope.
If you look at the SDXC spec, it says " Speeds will reach 104 MB/s by the end of 2009 with a target of 300 MB/s in the future." so I don't see a lot of point in putting them into a P2 card - they should be adequate in themselves!

Since Cardbus has effectively been superceded by ExpressCard, I don't see a lot of point in trying to extend the P2 standard.
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Old April 17th, 2009, 07:51 PM   #15
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clip browser

Will the Sony clip browser be able to view clips from the JVC GY-HM100?
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