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Old January 30th, 2009, 11:14 AM   #16
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I'de stick to shutter off at 50P unless your looking for a super sharp "saving private ryan" look.

At 50P 1/50th is the same as shutter off as the shutter is open for 1/50th of a second anyway.

If you trying to mimic film then it would be normal to use a 180 degree shutter which will always be half of the frame rate as that's the way most film cameras work. If you want it to look like 50i material then no shutter at 50P as the refresh rate and exposure period will be the same.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 12:00 PM   #17
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Compared to shooting 1920x1080 which is the native resolution of the EX1, I find 720 looks very poor.
As viewed directly, yes, but the original question specified that the primary interest was for downconversion for SD DVD or the web. Hence the question as to whether "film look" is preferred (in which case 1080p/25 is probably best) or "smooth motion" (in which case 720p/50 should be better than 1080i/25).
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Old January 30th, 2009, 04:01 PM   #18
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So I set the shutter to off when shooting @ 720p50.
Is this the correct setting?
I wish the manual was a bit more informative.
I'll run some tests today and have a play around before the shoot.

Thanks
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Old January 30th, 2009, 06:00 PM   #19
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Nick, That is what i am doing, Shutter off, has worked ok for the last 4 weddings i have shot.

Tonight i am shooting the Gold Coast Home Basket Ball Home game, so i will do a few tests,

The stadium has plenty of light.

Shutter off,

Shutter Auto,

Shutter 1/250,

We will see how we go. I will post a part of each and let you guys pick on what you think is best.

Rob.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 07:47 PM   #20
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Ok have been doing some tests.
Of course 720p will never be as sharp as 1080p; this is not a concern for me as I'm only interested in out put to SD.
I canít really see any difference from 1080p and 720p down converted via Compressor using CBR @ 8mbps mind you this was only a small sample of trees and plants, which I find break down during the down conversion to SD.
I think that 720p down converted looks better but I think this is because Iím starting at a lower resolution rather than 1080p so my eyes are being fooled by this higher resoultion.
One thing I noticed is that my MBP 17Ē had a harder time playing back for some reason, I thought being a lower resolution would make it easier for play back.


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Old January 31st, 2009, 10:12 AM   #21
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Quote:
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I think that 720p down converted looks better but I think this is because Iím starting at a lower resolution rather than 1080p so my eyes are being fooled by this higher resoultion.
Sometimes, there's just Too Much Detail in life, and video is no exception. 720p doesn't have as much detail as 1080p before you downconvert, so less issues with twittery details. BUT... 720p25 does have the advantage (IMHO) of spreading the variable bandwidth over fewer pixels, so less loss of detail in high motion sequences.

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Originally Posted by Nick Stone View Post
One thing I noticed is that my MBP 17Ē had a harder time playing back for some reason, I thought being a lower resolution would make it easier for play back.
Is this 720p50 material? My guess is that, even with LongGOP efficiencies, 720p50 is as hard if not maybe harder to decompress than 1080p25. 720p25 is absolutely peachy on my MBP17" (except in XDCAM transfer, and even then, the second play of a clip is perfect if the first was a bit sticky).

And if I may return briefly to the main thrust of your question, I shoot almost exclusively 720p25 as p50 is undoubtedly a wonderful thing with silky smooth movement, but right now 25p is selling really well. Looks the same on DVD and web.

Shutter choice (on, off, speed) is a matter of desired look and feel just like aperture - it's not a yes/no. Between impressionistic but almost smeary 'off' to spicy-hot short shutter settings in zingy sunlight, there's plenty of room for clean, zippy, calm or aggressive shutter settings just like there's room for deep, shallow, normal or freaky depth of field, or flattering, expansive, broad (as in 'whoa!') or 'sniper' focal lengths. My last shoot (PAL) used Off, 1/33, 1/50, 1/60 (when computer screens were in shot), 1/125 when I ran out of ND but wanted f2.8, and 1/250 for some crazy trundle dolly shots through interiors. I also used 16 and 32 frame slow shutters for timelapse.

Play with shutters, it's amazing how we can put 'meaning' into the difference of shutter speeds: dreamy, normal, edgy, zingy...

But as for your original question, 720p50 is ideal for shooting HD material that needs to intercut with PAL interlaced footage. Compressor will re-interlace your 720p50 if you 'turn the gears on' so to speak.

If I were shooting for a PAL project that was definitely NOT progressive, I'd shoot 720p50. Progressive and interlace don't mix (cf. Monty Python Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things / Escape (from film)).

Oops, and that's my render finished.
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Old January 31st, 2009, 01:38 PM   #22
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Thanks Matt,
I'm liking this format for me as I think the down-conversion seems to hold up better going to SD DVD.
You mention that compressor with re-interlace if I used frame controls, why would it do this?

Nick
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Old January 31st, 2009, 02:33 PM   #23
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You mention that compressor with re-interlace if I used frame controls, why would it do this?
If you shoot 720p25, and downconvert to Standard Definition (say DV or DVD), it will have 'that film look' - a sort of time shift that says 'this is happening in film time' not 'this is happening now' - the look of reportage, film, cheap documentary, sport and so on.

If you're filming with a DSR-570 or other fairly high-end but interlaced PAL camera, and cut in EX1 at 720p25, the EX shots will look a little 'other-worldly' and will present in such a way that will not sit well with traditional video footage.

However, because the Progressive look is synonymous with 'high production values' and 'expensive shoots' it may even cheapen what comes before.

So how do you make an EX1 look like real traditional interlaced video?

By shooting 720p50, then turning every frame into a field - in other words, re-interlacing (so frame 1 of 50 is field 1 of frame 1, frame 2 is field 2 of frame 1, frame 3 is field 1 of frame 2, frame 4 is field 2 of frame 2, and so on).

Compressor is logical but completely unintuative about this. With the frame controls switched on, and when you try to deinterlace a 50fps source into a 25 fps (but 50 fields per second) destination, it re-interlaces things. Hooray!

So you shoot 720p50, push the rushes through Compressor, and get DVCAM style rushes that could have come out of a DSR-570

Of course, I prefer the expensive look of progressive anyway, and avoid this process if at all possible, with so much success I haven't had to do it in over a year - so I've forgotten the little details on how to do it. But it can be done easily and it looks stunning (if you like interlaced footage, which I don't).
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Old January 31st, 2009, 03:04 PM   #24
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Matt,
I export to compressor, then use a best template but worked a bit, then render straight out to mpeg.
Because of this format is there something I need to do extra or is my work flow correct?
If intercutting 1080i or 1080p do I need to work the 720p footage in compressor?

Thanks
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Old January 31st, 2009, 03:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
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is there something I need to do extra or is my work flow correct?
Just need to engage frame controls (there's a gear icon next door, this needs to be clicked and frame controls turned ON). Sorry I can't give step-by-step right now. Am stacked with edit work and am writing during compress/render time (and it's good therapy too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Stone View Post
If intercutting 1080i or 1080p do I need to work the 720p footage in compressor?
Generally, you'll be working in the format that the majority of your footage is shot in, so for a Z1 shoot with a bit of EX1, you'll be on an HDV timeline, and for an EX1 720p shoot with a bit of Z1, you'll be on a 720p timeline.

Transcoding footage to another format is only obligatory when you're going to do multicam editing, so if your main camera is EX1 and your second/third cameras are Z1s shooting HDV, you can EITHER shoot the lot 1080i, OR shoot 720p on the EX1 and use Compressor to transcode your Z1 1080i to 720p XDCAM-EX by deinterlacing, and maybe adding a hint of sharpening on the way down.

Most of the time, so long as you switch your sequence settings on to the highest quality, you can just plonk your non-standard footage on the timeline and let FCP sort it out. I do this with PDX-10 C-Roll, and quite frankly I've been gobsmacked when clients didn't notice the difference between PDX-10 DV and Z1 HDV when it got to DVD (but everything was deinterlaced).

But I would avoid interlaced right now. I'd prefer to downconvert 1080i to 720p rather than edit 1080i. Interlacing only works on CRT screens, and most of our work going forward will be on natively progressive screens, so deinterlacing will either remove 25% of the resolution or (on cheap screens) cut resolution in half. Native progressive is the way to go, period.
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Old January 31st, 2009, 03:58 PM   #26
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call me dumb but

can you not adjust the EX1s shutter to 1/30, 1/15, etc when shooting 1080i 60p?
as you know on the Z1, hit shutter, and rotate the thumbwheel. i need the vortex DVD.
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Old February 11th, 2009, 02:43 PM   #27
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Hey Robert,
I was interested in how the shoot went the other night using the shutter settings described in an earlier post.

Nick
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