Filter for IR contamination

David Herman · June 27th, 2009, 01:19 PM

Having just forked out for the 486 filter, what if anything can one do about Chroma aberration?

Max Allen · June 27th, 2009, 05:20 PM

As fellow professionals we should stop making excuses for Sony and all agree that for the needs of a working professional the high degree of Far Red contamination is a flaw in the EX design.

Pointing to the characteristic less pronounced in higher end cameras as leverage against this issue does not solve the problem. It is a problem and it has for many permanently damaged their confidence in Sony cameras. Personally I am considering selling my EX.

There are comparable choices in the market without all the unnecessary headaches. As the issue gains notoriety in the industry I suspect Producers will start to stay away from cameramen with EX gear because they simply won't want to deal with the extra issue when they have many other owner/operator choices out there.

As the end-user oriented company they always claim to be it is tragic that the only peep Sony has made is an implication that "it's a feature, not a problem". In exchange for maroon blacks my reds will come out better? This is as ridiculous as it sounds. Faithful blacks are basic. Before you get to amping the resolution, solid state and full raster you have to get your blacks straight.

Blacks are fundamental in any image, whether it has black in it or not. There is no arguing that by any engineer. Although this is a far red issue and not overall blacks the point is this -- it is has to do with black reproduction and should have been noticed, probably was, and addressed during the blacks testing phase.

Juan Martinez, Sr. Product Mgr intimately knowledgeable with the EX project, is a member of this forum. Juan, you should make some type of response about this. I apologize for sounding strong but we EX owners are trying to communicate to the company that this is frustrating many, many Sony customers.

Dennis Dillon · June 27th, 2009, 08:14 PM

Please read
ProVideo Coalition.com: Stunning Good Looks by Art Adams | Cinematography

Vincent Oliver · June 28th, 2009, 01:56 AM

Thank you for that link Dennis.

I will hold off from buying the 486 as at first sight the Tiffen filter produces a better looking image.

Regarding the question "I’d be curious to see which version of the chart you prefer: saturated reds, or desaturated reds. " Of course the vibrant colours in the clean shot are nicer, but this vibrancy can be acheived in the filtered shot by increasing the saturation by 5 to 10% whilst still keep the black black.

Docea Marius · June 28th, 2009, 11:59 AM

I made a new test with the filter 486 applied to EX1.

Dean Harrington · July 1st, 2009, 03:47 PM

Any idea or news as to when tiffin will release their new IR Non-hot mirror filter for the EX1/3?

Ryan Mitchell · July 2nd, 2009, 11:06 AM

In case it helps, I've attached a frame grab from some footage that I shot recently. Please ignore the terrible lighting (or lack thereof) and exposure. :)

This was shot on an EX-1 at a fairly wide zoom, if not fully wide, because I couldn't get any further behind the foreground actor - I was sitting on the desk behind him as it was. Having read this kind of information before, I keep a 486 on my camera at all times, just in case. If/when I get to the point of having lens adapters, I'll deal with the issue again at that point, I'm sure.

There's another shot that I did that day fully-zoomed that showed a non-colored vignette when the camera moved (it was a hand-held shot), but I'm not sure that's a related issue - I'll probably try to reproduce in the future and narrow down the issue to the 486 or just something inherent to the lens on the EX-1.

The green is clearly visible on the right side on the ceiling tiles and also contaminates the dark blue on the left shoulder of the shirt in the foreground.

This shot is completely uncorrected off the camera - I've done some contrast/red-tint primary correction for this shot in After Effects - and I'll probably put an additional color correction, masked with a large feather, to get rid of the green on the edges, prior to the primary color correction layer. Had I not been doing color correction in AE, it would have probably been more of a pain, although since I'm using Colorista I probably could use it's masking features as well in something like Final Cut.

Hopefully this helps a little bit - at least to show people an example of the green with the 486. If people are interested, I'll report back with the results of a masked color-correction to the green so you can A/B the results. Just let me know.

Brian Cassar · July 2nd, 2009, 12:15 PM

Most probably you did not need to put on the 486 at all since from the attached frame grab it seems that you were working under neon light. I never had problems with such light - it's the halogen and tungsten (and natural sunlight) that produce the problem.

Ryan Mitchell · July 2nd, 2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Cassar

Most probably you did not need to put on the 486 at all since from the attached frame grab it seems that you were working under neon light. I never had problems with such light - it's the halogen and tungsten (and natural sunlight) that produce the problem.

To be honest I hadn't thought about it - I have the 486 on there all the time right now as I'd rather be safe than sorry - my belief is that fixing the green vignette, if it shows up at all, is much easier than fixing the IR contamination if I forgot to put on the 486.

Your point is noted, though.

But if I had taken it off, I wouldn't have a nice example to work on to see how the correction works and wouldn't have anything to share on the board! How tragic would that have been?!? :)

Dave Morrison · July 2nd, 2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Cassar

Most probably you did not need to put on the 486 at all since from the attached frame grab it seems that you were working under neon light. I never had problems with such light - it's the halogen and tungsten (and natural sunlight) that produce the problem.

I think you meant to say "fluorescent" light and not neon.

Ryan Mitchell · July 2nd, 2009, 02:15 PM

I didn't even catch that myself - I read it as "fluorescent". :)

It's been a while since I had researched this, but if his original point was correct, it's pretty much any type of light other than fluorescent that would potentially create this problem for the EX-1? Makes the green cast of fluoro bulbs seem like a Godsend at this point, doesn't it? :)

Bob Grant · July 2nd, 2009, 03:55 PM

As far as I know the problem only shows up with tungsten and sunlight. You shoud be quite safe with fluro, LED and HMI lighting.

Marlon Martins · July 2nd, 2009, 04:33 PM

i just got my boss ex3 for a few tests, and im also waiting the tiffen filter to come out.

we just film with halogen and daylight, so, its brown everywhere :(

hurry tiffen, hurry! ;)

Dave Morrison · July 2nd, 2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Mitchell

I didn't even catch that myself - I read it as "fluorescent". :)

It's been a while since I had researched this, but if his original point was correct, it's pretty much any type of light other than fluorescent that would potentially create this problem for the EX-1? Makes the green cast of fluoro bulbs seem like a Godsend at this point, doesn't it? :)

No problem. I saw that and had to scratch my head for a minute. I'm thinking about swaping out the lamphead in my Lowel RifaLite to put in the fluoro module and remove the tungstens. That way, I might be able to light my talking heads without the IR issues.

Derek Reich · July 2nd, 2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Grant

As far as I know the problem only shows up with tungsten and sunlight. You shoud be quite safe with fluro, LED and HMI lighting.

I have seen this problem with both fluro and HMIs. Haven't tried LED yet....

June 27th, 2009, 01:19 PM	#256
David Herman Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: gloucestershire uk Posts: 93	Having just forked out for the 486 filter, what if anything can one do about Chroma aberration? Attached Thumbnails

June 28th, 2009, 01:56 AM	#259
Vincent Oliver Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chislehurst, London Posts: 1,724	Thank you for that link Dennis. I will hold off from buying the 486 as at first sight the Tiffen filter produces a better looking image. Regarding the question "I’d be curious to see which version of the chart you prefer: saturated reds, or desaturated reds. " Of course the vibrant colours in the clean shot are nicer, but this vibrancy can be acheived in the filtered shot by increasing the saturation by 5 to 10% whilst still keep the black black. __________________ Eyes are a deaf man’s ears. Ears are a blind man’s eyes

June 28th, 2009, 11:59 AM	#260
Docea Marius Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Romania Posts: 175	I made a new test with the filter 486 applied to EX1. Attached Thumbnails

July 1st, 2009, 03:47 PM	#261
Dean Harrington Major Player Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tokyo Posts: 898	tiffin IR filter ... Any idea or news as to when tiffin will release their new IR Non-hot mirror filter for the EX1/3?

July 2nd, 2009, 11:06 AM	#262
Ryan Mitchell Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 120	Another example of green In case it helps, I've attached a frame grab from some footage that I shot recently. Please ignore the terrible lighting (or lack thereof) and exposure. :) This was shot on an EX-1 at a fairly wide zoom, if not fully wide, because I couldn't get any further behind the foreground actor - I was sitting on the desk behind him as it was. Having read this kind of information before, I keep a 486 on my camera at all times, just in case. If/when I get to the point of having lens adapters, I'll deal with the issue again at that point, I'm sure. There's another shot that I did that day fully-zoomed that showed a non-colored vignette when the camera moved (it was a hand-held shot), but I'm not sure that's a related issue - I'll probably try to reproduce in the future and narrow down the issue to the 486 or just something inherent to the lens on the EX-1. The green is clearly visible on the right side on the ceiling tiles and also contaminates the dark blue on the left shoulder of the shirt in the foreground. This shot is completely uncorrected off the camera - I've done some contrast/red-tint primary correction for this shot in After Effects - and I'll probably put an additional color correction, masked with a large feather, to get rid of the green on the edges, prior to the primary color correction layer. Had I not been doing color correction in AE, it would have probably been more of a pain, although since I'm using Colorista I probably could use it's masking features as well in something like Final Cut. Hopefully this helps a little bit - at least to show people an example of the green with the 486. If people are interested, I'll report back with the results of a masked color-correction to the green so you can A/B the results. Just let me know. Attached Thumbnails

June 27th, 2009, 05:20 PM	#257
Max Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: NY Posts: 186	As fellow professionals we should stop making excuses for Sony and all agree that for the needs of a working professional the high degree of Far Red contamination is a flaw in the EX design. Pointing to the characteristic less pronounced in higher end cameras as leverage against this issue does not solve the problem. It is a problem and it has for many permanently damaged their confidence in Sony cameras. Personally I am considering selling my EX. There are comparable choices in the market without all the unnecessary headaches. As the issue gains notoriety in the industry I suspect Producers will start to stay away from cameramen with EX gear because they simply won't want to deal with the extra issue when they have many other owner/operator choices out there. As the end-user oriented company they always claim to be it is tragic that the only peep Sony has made is an implication that "it's a feature, not a problem". In exchange for maroon blacks my reds will come out better? This is as ridiculous as it sounds. Faithful blacks are basic. Before you get to amping the resolution, solid state and full raster you have to get your blacks straight. Blacks are fundamental in any image, whether it has black in it or not. There is no arguing that by any engineer. Although this is a far red issue and not overall blacks the point is this -- it is has to do with black reproduction and should have been noticed, probably was, and addressed during the blacks testing phase. Juan Martinez, Sr. Product Mgr intimately knowledgeable with the EX project, is a member of this forum. Juan, you should make some type of response about this. I apologize for sounding strong but we EX owners are trying to communicate to the company that this is frustrating many, many Sony customers.

June 27th, 2009, 08:14 PM	#258
Dennis Dillon Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hobe Sound, Florida Posts: 213	Please read ProVideo Coalition.com: Stunning Good Looks by Art Adams \| Cinematography

July 2nd, 2009, 12:15 PM	#263
Brian Cassar Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Malta Posts: 306	Most probably you did not need to put on the 486 at all since from the attached frame grab it seems that you were working under neon light. I never had problems with such light - it's the halogen and tungsten (and natural sunlight) that produce the problem.

July 2nd, 2009, 02:15 PM	#266
Ryan Mitchell Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 120	I didn't even catch that myself - I read it as "fluorescent". :) It's been a while since I had researched this, but if his original point was correct, it's pretty much any type of light other than fluorescent that would potentially create this problem for the EX-1? Makes the green cast of fluoro bulbs seem like a Godsend at this point, doesn't it? :)

July 2nd, 2009, 03:55 PM	#267
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	As far as I know the problem only shows up with tungsten and sunlight. You shoud be quite safe with fluro, LED and HMI lighting.

July 2nd, 2009, 04:33 PM	#268
Marlon Martins Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Torres, Brazil Posts: 115	i just got my boss ex3 for a few tests, and im also waiting the tiffen filter to come out. we just film with halogen and daylight, so, its brown everywhere :( hurry tiffen, hurry! ;)