1080 30p vs 1080 25p in PAL area at DVinfo.net

David Issko · February 15th, 2009, 07:49 PM

As 30p offers much less image stutter/judder than 25p, I was wondering who may be shooting 1080 30p in PAL area countries.

If you are shooting 25p, what have you selected/deselected to minimise the image stutter/judder.

Serena Steuart · February 16th, 2009, 12:57 AM

Shutter "off". And careful camera motion control. Also need to be more conscious of subject motion vector relative to line of sight; motion normal to that is smooth only at slow LOS rates.
Really it depends on how you want your stuff to look. If you like the cadence of 24fps, then 25P is like that. If your material is for personal use only, you can shoot 50P. Otherwise you need to use a common standard (25P or 50i), unless you're contemplating transformation to a standard in post.

Gary Nattrass · February 16th, 2009, 03:50 AM

I shoot 1080i 50i at 100 shutter speed and master to pro res 422 at 1080i 25p, it seems to be the best balance to me.

Brian Drysdale · February 16th, 2009, 04:14 AM

Shooting with the shutter off with progressive isn't really recommended unless you're short of light. Any movement tends to be rather blurred, an interesting effect but it can be distracting if not appropriate to the subject matter.

People do use a slower shutter speed than the usual 1/50 helpful, if they find the 25p progressive effect objectionable, but you may find the alternative is to shoot interlace or 50p.

It doesn't really make any sense to shoot 30p in a PAL country unless your client requires it. Post houses and the entire TV and video industry is set up for 25p or 50i, so you could run into difficulties at some stage.

24p in the USA for video use adds another little artefact noticeable on camera movement, which you don't get shooting 25p in the PAL countries.

David Issko · February 16th, 2009, 05:13 AM

Thanks for your input Serena, Gary & Brian.

Since I have had my EX3, I have tried most of the above but I am not at all happy with the picture stutter. Even interviewee movements with locked off camera displayed the odd stutter albeit quite gentle.

Yep, I know that it does not make sense for 30p in a PAL country, but let me tell you how much better (smoother motion) it looks than 25p. Actually I really don't because you all know that!!!!

Having more recently turned down (but not off) detail setting as has been even more recently discussed, has had a positive effect on the stutter (as well as overall) picture.

Interesting point to note about shutter and progressive. Sony (on their website) suggest running p with shutter off but that is 30p. I have tried 25p with shutter off, 1/50 and even 1/100 but the stutter was still evident. Moving up to 30p leave the stutter out in the cold. It really looks great.

Gary, I might try 1080 50i, master to PR422HQ @ 25p and see how that goes. Why did you chose 1/100 shutter.

Lots more trialling but in the meantime if anyone else can chime in with more, I would be most grateful.

Best wishes to all.

Brian Drysdale · February 16th, 2009, 08:43 AM

I'm surprised you're seeing a stuttering effect on a static interview. There is an effect you see with the on set monitor when shooting 24p that feels like you're only getting half the information, but that effect is gone in the final master delivery tape.

Shooting progressive you usually only see a stuttering effect during a fast camera move.

Serena Steuart · February 16th, 2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Shooting with the shutter off with progressive isn't really recommended unless you're short of light.

One would think that, and indeed so did I, initially. I note that Adam Wilt also prefers "shutter off" at 24 fps for the EX1/3.

Brian Drysdale · February 16th, 2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serena Steuart

One would think that, and indeed so did I, initially. I note that Adam Wilt also prefers "shutter off" at 24 fps for the EX1/3.

It could be a special case, certainly with any other progressive camera I've used switching the shutter off gives a rather strange, ghostly other world effect.

February 15th, 2009, 07:49 PM	#1
David Issko Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 393	1080 30p vs 1080 25p in PAL area As 30p offers much less image stutter/judder than 25p, I was wondering who may be shooting 1080 30p in PAL area countries. If you are shooting 25p, what have you selected/deselected to minimise the image stutter/judder. __________________ David Issko Edit 1 Video Productions

February 16th, 2009, 03:50 AM	#3
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	I shoot 1080i 50i at 100 shutter speed and master to pro res 422 at 1080i 25p, it seems to be the best balance to me. __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

February 16th, 2009, 05:13 AM	#5
David Issko Major Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 393	Thanks for your input Serena, Gary & Brian. Since I have had my EX3, I have tried most of the above but I am not at all happy with the picture stutter. Even interviewee movements with locked off camera displayed the odd stutter albeit quite gentle. Yep, I know that it does not make sense for 30p in a PAL country, but let me tell you how much better (smoother motion) it looks than 25p. Actually I really don't because you all know that!!!! Having more recently turned down (but not off) detail setting as has been even more recently discussed, has had a positive effect on the stutter (as well as overall) picture. Interesting point to note about shutter and progressive. Sony (on their website) suggest running p with shutter off but that is 30p. I have tried 25p with shutter off, 1/50 and even 1/100 but the stutter was still evident. Moving up to 30p leave the stutter out in the cold. It really looks great. Gary, I might try 1080 50i, master to PR422HQ @ 25p and see how that goes. Why did you chose 1/100 shutter. Lots more trialling but in the meantime if anyone else can chime in with more, I would be most grateful. Best wishes to all. __________________ David Issko Edit 1 Video Productions

February 16th, 2009, 12:57 AM	#2
Serena Steuart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Studio Alnitak, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 640 Images: 3	Shutter "off". And careful camera motion control. Also need to be more conscious of subject motion vector relative to line of sight; motion normal to that is smooth only at slow LOS rates. Really it depends on how you want your stuff to look. If you like the cadence of 24fps, then 25P is like that. If your material is for personal use only, you can shoot 50P. Otherwise you need to use a common standard (25P or 50i), unless you're contemplating transformation to a standard in post.

February 16th, 2009, 04:14 AM	#4
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Shooting with the shutter off with progressive isn't really recommended unless you're short of light. Any movement tends to be rather blurred, an interesting effect but it can be distracting if not appropriate to the subject matter. People do use a slower shutter speed than the usual 1/50 helpful, if they find the 25p progressive effect objectionable, but you may find the alternative is to shoot interlace or 50p. It doesn't really make any sense to shoot 30p in a PAL country unless your client requires it. Post houses and the entire TV and video industry is set up for 25p or 50i, so you could run into difficulties at some stage. 24p in the USA for video use adds another little artefact noticeable on camera movement, which you don't get shooting 25p in the PAL countries.

February 16th, 2009, 08:43 AM	#6
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	I'm surprised you're seeing a stuttering effect on a static interview. There is an effect you see with the on set monitor when shooting 24p that feels like you're only getting half the information, but that effect is gone in the final master delivery tape. Shooting progressive you usually only see a stuttering effect during a fast camera move.