Anyone know what this image is suffering from? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 13th, 2009, 06:02 PM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Monroe, NY
Posts: 686
Anyone know what this image is suffering from?

There is horizontal banding in this video in spots.

I shot it with my EX1 at HQ 1920 x 1080 /60i and exported it to Raw DV (4:3 cropped) using Clip Browser. It is to be used in a 4:3 NTSC DV project 720 x 480 along with footage from a VX2000. Several spots have horizontal lines like the orange bedspread in this screenshot from the timeline in Vegas 4:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40...ech/Image1.png

I tried Avi and several other conversion methods and this is the best I could get it to look. After some conversions I tried the problem looked really pronounced.

Anyone know what is it from and what can I do about it?

John
John Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 03:06 AM   #2
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chislehurst, London
Posts: 1,724
Maybe my eyes have finally given up, but I can't see any horizontal lines in your jpeg. Perhaps they show up on a movie clip, if so then I would think it is the dreaded rolling shutter effect. This may be due to the stage lights being out of phase with your camera, try using 50mhz or 60mhz next time. (Page 66 of your Operating Instructions book)
__________________
Eyes are a deaf manís ears. Ears are a blind manís eyes
Vincent Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 04:46 AM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 1,271
Are the lines just to the right of the girls left arm ?
The lines there look like interlaced jaggies.

Paul.
__________________
Round 2
Panasonic HC-X1, Vinten PB, Sennheiser G3 bits. Vegas pro 14 on i7,AMD Radeon RX480 8GB.
Paul Kellett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 05:13 AM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 2,979
I see what you are talking about. It's a 1/2" horizontal orange/purple/black band midway between her left elbow and the purple furniture. I had to blow it up to see it at first. The artifact looks like its from another part of the frame (from her costume) but it doesn't match the current frame so it could be from a prior frame that did not get updated. It reminds me of the effect of dirty/misaligned heads. Do you see it when you play the footage from the camera on a monitor and bypass your NLE?

BTW, is that from Rogers and Hammerstein's Cinderella?
Les Wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 06:20 AM   #5
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chislehurst, London
Posts: 1,724
I had to enlarge the picture to 500% to see the lines. These are artifacts due to the downconversion of HD footage to SD. Do a search on this forum for downconverting techniques.

These only seem to appear on the red blanket (top edge) it looks like your reds are oversaturated, try reducing them in your Profile settings. I also notice your lens seems to have a lot of Chromatic abberations, maybe the colours are not registering correctly.
__________________
Eyes are a deaf manís ears. Ears are a blind manís eyes
Vincent Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 07:18 AM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Monroe, NY
Posts: 686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver View Post
I had to enlarge the picture to 500% to see the lines. These are artifacts due to the downconversion of HD footage to SD. Do a search on this forum for downconverting techniques.

These only seem to appear on the red blanket (top edge) it looks like your reds are oversaturated, try reducing them in your Profile settings. I also notice your lens seems to have a lot of Chromatic abberations, maybe the colours are not registering correctly.
I tried a few methods for downconverting. This example produced the least artifacts. Yes, they are on the red blanket. I can desaturate the footage in post to cut down on the red if you think that caused (or helped exaggerate) the horizontal bands.

Someone else suggested that they are from interlacing. I read every post in the archives that I could find and it seems that downconversion is the biggest problem with these cameras and the most often asked question. I couldn't find a consensus.

Any suggestions I may have missed regarding converting to 4:3 interlaced from HQ 1080/60i?

In terms of "a lot of Chromatic abberations", that scares me.

Can you describe them further? It sounds like the camera may need to go in for servicing and I need to be able to describe the problem in a little more detail to them.
Do the others see this as well? Do a lot of you shoot stage productions?

Thanks for the responses. Truly appreciated.

John
John Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 07:31 AM   #7
Trustee
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chislehurst, London
Posts: 1,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Peterson View Post
I tried a few methods for downconverting. This example produced the least artifacts. Yes, they are on the red blanket. I can desaturate the footage in post to cut down on the red if you think that caused the horizontal lines.

Someone else suggested that they are from interlacing. I read every post in the archives that I could find and it seems that downconversion is the biggest problem with these cameras and the most often asked question. I couldn't find a consensus.

Any suggestions I may have missed regarding converting to 4:3 interlaced from HQ 1080/60i?

In terms of "a lot of Chromatic abberations", that scares me.

Can you describe them further? It sounds like the camera may need to go in for servicing and I need to be able to describe the problem in a little more detail to them.
Do the others see this as well? Do a lot of you shoot stage productions?

Thanks for the responses. Truly appreciated.

John
John,

The oversaturated red will show up as a "bleeding", you may have noticed this on some poorly set up TV sets, or if you use an out of gamut red on a text caption.

Downconverting footage from the EX3 has also been a headache for me. At present I am using ClipBrowser to output to an AVI (720 x480) and then bringing it in on a NTSC timeline (my project is in NTSC, normally I would use PAL). This has produced very acceptable results, although not as good as I had hoped for from the EX3. I will continue to experiment after I have completed this DVD project.

The Chromatic aberations shows up as a green and purple edge to the edges of objects in your footage. Look at the bottom edge of the bar that runs accross the girls dress. or go to the left edge of the frame and see the book - object edges. Given that this is an elargement from a section, I wouldn't worry too much about this.
__________________
Eyes are a deaf manís ears. Ears are a blind manís eyes
Vincent Oliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 07:58 AM   #8
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: santa fe, nm
Posts: 3,264
Images: 10
When delivery is expected to be 720x480 (DV), it is always reommended you shoot 720p. Downconverting from 1080 generally results in these horizontal lines/twitter. This won't help you now, but, may be something to remember in the future.

Last edited by Bill Ravens; March 14th, 2009 at 08:33 AM.
Bill Ravens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 08:11 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Monroe, NY
Posts: 686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
When delivery is expected to be 720x480 (DV), it is always reommended you shoot 720p. Downconverting from 1080 generally results in these horizontal lines/twitter. This won't help you know, but, may be something to remember in the future.
Thanks for that Bill. The footage is mostly VX2000 footage. The EX1 footage is only one night's performance that I would like to use in the final edit.

If I shoot in 720p what should I do about putting progressive footage on a timeline with interlaced footage. What do you do?

John
John Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 08:33 AM   #10
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: santa fe, nm
Posts: 3,264
Images: 10
Tuff question, John. I avoid shooting interlaced. If in a pinch, my only option would be to deinterlace before mixing. The best way to do this would be with VirtualDub and Donald Graft's deinterlace filter, IMHO.
Bill Ravens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 08:37 AM   #11
Sponsor: Westside AV
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Mount Washington Valley, NH, USA
Posts: 1,365
Shoot 720 60p it is beautiful, and easily converted to 525 60i or 525 30p, or even 24p.

If you shoot 30p it will work well in a 60i timeline just interpret as i.

I use Macs, mostly M100 but also FCP. I have never had a problem down-converting in software. I can give more specific details if you need them, but my experience is only on Macs.
Olof Ekbergh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 08:38 AM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Monroe, NY
Posts: 686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
Tuff question, John. I avoid shooting interlaced. If in a pinch, my only option would be to deinterlace before mixing. The best way to do this would be with VirtualDub and Donald Graft's deinterlace filter, IMHO.
I guess that is what I was thinking when I chose HQ 1080 /60i for the second camera for that night. I shot 5 shows with the VX2000 and for one show the EX1 was the second camera. Since there was no 720i I figured HQ 1080i was the only real option since everything I have read says that SD mode on the EX1 is really awful looking.

If I shoot another musical with only the EX1 I think I will absolutely take your advice and shoot it in 720p.

John
John Peterson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 10:05 AM   #13
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Malvern UK
Posts: 1,931
The only 'banding' that I can see is due to DV style colour sampling issues. That's simply how DV handles colours such as red and blue and the main reason that 4:2:2 colour is preferred over 4:2:0 and 4:1:1.
Simon Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 10:53 AM   #14
Better than Halle Berry
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 435
Where does this image come from? If it's the QuickTime Player have you checked the high-quality box in presentation settings? If it's a screen grab from FCP's canvas, don't sweat it that's just a proxy.

Noah
Noah Kadner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 14th, 2009, 03:09 PM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Monroe, NY
Posts: 686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah Kadner View Post
Where does this image come from? If it's the QuickTime Player have you checked the high-quality box in presentation settings? If it's a screen grab from FCP's canvas, don't sweat it that's just a proxy.

Noah
It is an image grab off the timeline from Vegas 4.0 in .Png format

Thanks Noah.

John
John Peterson is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:37 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network