DV Info Net

DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)
-   Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-pro-handhelds/)
-   -   Steady Shot, Smoothcam, both or what? (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-pro-handhelds/238593-steady-shot-smoothcam-both-what.html)

Dave Morrison July 7th, 2009 10:20 AM

Steady Shot, Smoothcam, both or what?
 
Is there any general agreement as to which of these approches works best? Either using the EX1's Steady Shot function OR shooting it clean and applying Smoothcam in Final Cut. Or, what happens if you use both in combination? I have a series of handheld tracking shots coming up and wondered what others have found.

Omar Idris July 7th, 2009 10:47 AM

The in-camera OIS is miles ahead of anything you can apply in post for the simple reason that it's optical, not digital.

Doug Jensen July 7th, 2009 12:36 PM

Not only that, but Smoothcam doesn't work all the great in a lot of the situations I wanted to use it for -- and the render times are really long.

SteadyShot is, by far, your best bet for handheld shooting, but don't use it on a tripod.

Mike Marriage July 7th, 2009 02:04 PM

Smoothcam can be brilliant for certain things and hopeless for others. It's can't get rid of motion blur which gives a funny look and you obviously sacrifice resolution.

If you want smooth tracking without a dolly a Steadicam would be your best bet if you can afford it. Far better than OIS or smoothcam.

David C. Williams July 7th, 2009 03:43 PM

Rent a wheelchair, OIS on, job done. $5-10 rental?

Nick Wilson July 7th, 2009 04:35 PM

Using FCP Smoothcam on shaky EX footage provides a graphic demonstration of rolling shutter! Fix part of the image and the rest quivers and wobbles just like jelly.

N

Keith Moreau July 7th, 2009 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Wilson (Post 1168491)
Using FCP Smoothcam on shaky EX footage provides a graphic demonstration of rolling shutter! Fix part of the image and the rest quivers and wobbles just like jelly.

N

Correct. Smoothcam with the EX1 rolling shutter will produce jello. The one drawback with the EX. It can be used but it provides a dreamy watery effect, which can be nice but is also perceived as 'not real.'

Dylan Morgan July 8th, 2009 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1168384)
Not only that, but Smoothcam doesn't work all the great in a lot of the situations I wanted to use it for -- and the render times are really long.

SteadyShot is, by far, your best bet for handheld shooting, but don't use it on a tripod.

Doug can you explain what advantage you gain over not using steady shot when on a tripod? I know you don't necessarily need it on a tripod, but switching it on and off.... Well I'm guessing that picutre might be slightly sharper?

Charles Newcomb July 8th, 2009 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylan Morgan (Post 1169040)
Doug can you explain what advantage you gain over not using steady shot when on a tripod? I know you don't necessarily need it on a tripod, but switching it on and off.... Well I'm guessing that picutre might be slightly sharper?

If you don't switch it off it will try to keep panning or tilting even when you've stopped. Try it and you'll see. It'll make you nuts.

Doug Jensen July 8th, 2009 05:52 PM

Yeah, what Charles says is correct. Anytime you pan, tilt, or zoom the camera, SteadyShot will try to dampen your intended movement -- and it is noticable.

Of course, if you're shooting on a tripod and the shot is locked-down, then SteadyShot can be your friend. I've done some shooting outdoors in windy conditions, on a tripod, with the camera locked-down, and SteadyShot did an excellent of cancelling most of the wind that was buffeting the camera.

Dave Morrison July 8th, 2009 06:03 PM

My original reason for starting this thread was because I have some shoots coming up where I'll be doing model home "walk-thru's" handheld so I was curious to see what you all thought of either of these motion canceling options. I'll also do some more of my own tests before this project begins, but I really appreciate the input everybody has offered here. There won't be any tripod shots in this project. Also, since I'll be doing these shoots alone, a wheelchair won't be an option, either.

Keith Moreau July 8th, 2009 07:02 PM

If you're hand-holding relatively steadily, I would recommend using the in camera steadishot for sure. Avoid fast shutter speeds, use 1/60 or longer. If there isn't a huge amount of movement you might be able to further smooth it with smoothcam. I sometimes use 1/30 for hand-held (I shot 30P) and this further smoothes things out.

Charles Newcomb July 8th, 2009 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1169062)
with the camera locked-down, and SteadyShot did an excellent of cancelling most of the wind that was buffeting the camera.

Wish I'd thought of that a couple days ago. Shazbot.

Charles Newcomb July 8th, 2009 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Morrison (Post 1169067)
My original reason for starting this thread was because I have some shoots coming up where I'll be doing model home "walk-thru's" handheld

You mean like this? Hangers in Smooth Cam on Vimeo The guy's not using an EX, but he did use Smooth Cam.

David Herman July 9th, 2009 01:51 AM

smack in the middle of a steadyshot dilemma. (I think) Shooting 25p with a 50 shutter speed, hand held but with a very stable combo of dm brace and steadystick. My pans, however slow, are incredibly grabby. I must try again with steadyshot off and see if that was the problem. Any other ideas?

Dean Sensui July 9th, 2009 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Morrison (Post 1169067)
I'll be doing model home "walk-thru's" handheld so I was curious to see what you all thought ...

If at all possible, you will want to do this with a Steadicam or Glidecam. Stabilization in post can't compare.

Simon Wyndham July 9th, 2009 04:15 AM

Quote:

If at all possible, you will want to do this with a Steadicam or Glidecam. Stabilization in post can't compare.
True, but for the occasional shot Smoothcam can be very useful.

The only thing to be careful of with Smoothcam is that if you have any camera shake the Smoothcam filter will get rid of the camera movement but it *won't* get rid of the motion blur as the result of a sudden movement. So your original footage must be fairly smooth to begin with.

Keith Moreau July 9th, 2009 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham (Post 1169229)
True, but for the occasional shot Smoothcam can be very useful.

The only thing to be careful of with Smoothcam is that if you have any camera shake the Smoothcam filter will get rid of the camera movement but it *won't* get rid of the motion blur as the result of a sudden movement. So your original footage must be fairly smooth to begin with.

Or you can shoot with a very fast shutter speed if you know you're going to use smoothcam in Post. You could even add motion blur in post, not quite the same as in camera but passable.

Keith Moreau July 9th, 2009 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Moreau (Post 1169605)
Or you can shoot with a very fast shutter speed if you know you're going to use smoothcam in Post. You could even add motion blur in post, not quite the same as in camera but passable.

But... with the EX1 rolling shutter you'll get very sharp but jello images, especially if vertical lines are part of your subject. With CCD you don't get the jello.

Kevin Duffey July 9th, 2009 10:01 PM

Camera stabilizer
 
Have you looked at the myriad of DIY camera stabilizers? Steadicam Merlin is a great option for not too bad a price..but you can make one for < $50 in a couple hours. Do yourself a favor and look up on youtube for home built steadicams and DIY steadcams and Merlin steadicams. They work great, very cheap even if they don't look as stylish as the merlin. Couple of them show a cheap $14 tripod being used with putting weights on the bottom and a second small tripod (one of those cheap $5 table-mount ones) as a handle due to it have a ball-bearing joint in it. There are many videos showing how well they work and I think you'll find it work well for you.

Dave Morrison July 9th, 2009 10:06 PM

Speaking of stabilizers, has anybody in here put the EX1 into a Fig Rig? I'm just looking for options here. I spoke with another member here who had the CineCity steadicam rig:
The CineCity
but he said that I'd spend as much time trying to avoid hitting walls and door trim as I would shooting. I didn't know if the Fig unit might give me a more balanced way to hold the camera instead. Ideas?

David Esp July 25th, 2010 02:58 AM

DeShaker De-Jello's also.
 
Deshaker, the VirtualDub plugin by Gunnar Thalin, has a de-jello option for rolling-shutter-ed footage. Also it is multi-threaded, which really helps reduce the processing-time. Experimentation may be necessary with config (as for any such thing) and also compression (codec, default uncompressed) and possibly levels-related settings.

Matt Davis July 25th, 2010 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Morrison (Post 1169637)
Speaking of stabilizers, has anybody in here put the EX1 into a Fig Rig?

Yes - too heavy.

The sweet spot was PD150 or DVX100. Even the Z1 was a bit of a handful.

Like the Zacuto and similar systems, it partly works on leverage, in that it takes micro-shakes from your hands and arms, and scales them down so they all get soaked up.

However, as the weight increases, so does fatigue, so your wobbles get much greater.

I still use the FigRig with the EX1, but in odd ways - including that wheelchair trick, with the FigRig balanced on a lap-based cushion, or suspended over a walkway, or clamped in an odd corner using an Arri Magic Arm, where a tripod wouldn't fit.

The traditional 'hold it like a steering wheel' use hasn't really happened for the EX1 as, like Owl, I 'lack the necessary dorsal muscles' in my dotage.

Chad Johnson July 25th, 2010 02:53 PM

I say both together is just fine. OIS helps, but it only goes so far. If OIS covers what you need - cool, but if you need more you have Stabilize in Motion. And any use of Smoothcam or Stabilize will look better if you had OIS on in the first place.

The Smoothcam in FCP is pretty good, but it's much better in Motion (which you have if you have FCP). What I don't like about Smoothcam in FCP is that it needs to analyze the whole file, not just the clip. So if you captured a 10 minute file, but your clip to smooth is only 20 seconds, Smoothcam still needs to analyze the whole 10 minute file. That's where the long render/analyze times come from. Motion only works with the clip you want to smooth, and you have more control too. Check it out.

It's called "Round Tripping". In FCP you just set an in and out point around the clip you want to smooth, select the clip, then do a "Send to Motion" command. Save the motion file in your project folder (I make a specific folder just for motion files). Then when in Motion I apply the "Stabilize" behavior to the clip - adjust the parameters to taste then I'm done. At that point you can just drag the motion project file into your FCP project, right above the original clip - then render. No need to render out a new file from Motion.

Emeek is a great instructor who has lots of free lessons. Check out his YouTube channel.

Round Tripping
YouTube - Motion 3 Tutorial: Round tripping

Motion 3: Steady Cam Made Easy and Simple
How to Use the Steady Cam Feature in Motion 3 Video ? 5min.com

Emeek's Channel
YouTube - AppleShakeGuru's Channel


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:53 PM.

DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2019 The Digital Video Information Network