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Old August 3rd, 2009, 07:56 PM   #1
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Doug Jensen mentions cutting with HD in an SD timeline...

I was reading this article:

Interviews: Dough Jensen with His Sony PMW-EX1

When I noticed something doug said on the last question,
"Q: What are the possible post-production workflow scenarios for the EX1?
EX1 footage can be easily integrated into any HD post-production workflow. Once you get the footage off of the card and into your computer, itís just like any other footage. Whatever works for you now will work for you with the EX1. Even if youíre still editing SD productions, the EX1 fits in fine. Iíve been shooting 100% HD footage for over two years now, and yet 90% of my post-production work is still done on SD timelines. Itís no big deal working with HD clips. In fact, Iíll miss the days of SD editing when it comes to an end because of the advantages I get with scan/pan effects and cropping HD footage in an SD sequence. My advice is to shoot everything in HD now, whether you need it or not today, so you future-proof your footage! "

I have been hearing different things about outputting to SD from HD footage, and this guy is suggesting I just put the footage into an SD timeline. I have also heard that is not the "proper" thing to do. I do many TV spots for my work, and I'm buying an EX1 soon. I would love to know that it will work fine to just throw an HD final file of an ad onto an SD timeline so I can print it out to tape for the stations. They usually take MINIDV.

Is that cool to do? What about if I shot progressive, and SD TV is interlaced?

I'd love some input.

Thanks

Chadfish
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 08:40 PM   #2
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Hi Chad,
I’m relieved to say that, almost two years later, I still agree 100% with what I said in that interview. Nothing has changed about my workflow suggestions.

Before you begin editing, you need to ask yourself how the video will be used. Will you need an HD version? Will you need an SD version? Will you need both?

For me, most of the time I will only need one or the other, and usually it is an SD version only. Most of my work gets released on DVD and will never need to be released on Blu-ray or broadcasted. I know that for certain, so why bother with editing an HD version? The file sizes will be bigger. My graphics will need to be bigger. My animations will need to be bigger. Compressor is going to take longer to create my DVD files. I’ll have bigger files that will need to be archived. I won’t be able to scan and pan my footage, etc.

Even though my raw footage is HD, why should I bother to create an HD sequence if I’ll never need it? The answer is, I shouldn’t.

Some people like to edit with sequence settings that match their raw footage. Not me. I believe in editing with sequence settings that come very close to what my final output will be – for all the reasons I just listed in the paragraph above.

Of course, if I do need an HD version, then obviously I edit with XDCAM sequence settings. If I need an SD version too, then I down convert at the end of the workflow. But, like I said, that is rare. FYI, I have no need for ProRes in my workflow and never use it.

As for concerns about Interlaced, that issue never enters my mind. I have no interest in shooting or editing anything that is Interlaced. Interlaced looks like crap and is a relic of the past. Also, anything that is shot and edited as Progressive will still retain the look of Progressive if you convert it to Interlaced. You end up with two identical fields per frame that look the same as one progressive frame.

A lot of people ask about my FCP workflow for producing DVDs so I posted it online. Is this the only workflow that will work? Probably not, but it works great for me.
Vortex Media: VIDEO & PHOTO Tools and Training

I hope that clarifies anything that was unclear in the interview.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 08:41 PM   #3
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I'm cutting 2 cameras right now, but simulating three. Taking a break while it renders. A-Cam is DVX100. B-Cam is EX1. However, I am doing this virtually:

A-Cam is wide shot in SD widescreen
B-Cam is a 2-shot Pan and Scaned from a medium wide
C-Cam is a 1-shot Pan and Scanned from a medium wide.

All laid onto an SD timeline. All was shot interlaced, but I'll deinterlace at final render. Footage was color corrected as I brought each track onto the timeline. That gives me a reasonably similar place to start. Color grade will happen once I assemble the multi-cam edit.

Final delivery will be to our corporate intranet on the streaming server. Footage would easily look good enough for SD Broadcast.

Basically I am using the A-Cam for coverage as I swing the B-Cam. And the EX1 is sharp enough to give me the 1 and 2 shots from the same medium-wide.

I love this stuff. If you want, I can put a couple snapshots up tomorrow once I have a basic grade on it.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 09:04 PM   #4
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Hi Doug. It's great to hear from the horses mouth, and I am releaved I can just do what I have intuitively done already. I had heard you lose something by down converting something to SD by simply using an SD timeline, and I wasn't quite sure what to do.

I'd just like to get a couple of things straight:

• Interlacing. Are you saying I can shoot progressive, and throw that on an interlaced SD timeline, then output to interlaced MINIDV with no trouble?

--How about HDV that is 60i(Typical HV20 stuff), edited at HDV settings and output to 720P30 (For HD Youtube use)? Can I put the 720P30 final file on an SD timeline and export it to MINIDV with no strangeness?

At the moment we have a couple of these Cano HV20/30 cams that we have projects on and need to deliver for TV. Within a couple of weeks I am going full-on EX1 and won't look back. But in the mean time I am not sure about Interlaced to Progressive back to interlaced for delivery. I want an HD file for web display, but SD for TV in some cases, and I just want the best place (IN the cam) to start.

Thanks man!

Chadfish

Last edited by Chad Johnson; August 4th, 2009 at 11:09 AM.
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 09:09 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post

I love this stuff. If you want, I can put a couple snapshots up tomorrow once I have a basic grade on it.

I'd like to see that! I am interested in the pan-scan possibilities using the EX1. Can you put up a short segment showing some suts with a little key to tell what shot is zoomed and what is not?

Chadfish
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Old August 3rd, 2009, 09:20 PM   #6
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Segments are hard. So how about this..

These shots are one frame apart. The full-frame is EX1 footage on an SD timeline. The 2-shot is pan/scanned in. The closeup is from the same frame as the med. wide. Good enough for web, but I wouldn't broadcast it. Though I've seen worse over air.
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Doug Jensen mentions cutting with HD in an SD timeline...-fullframe.png   Doug Jensen mentions cutting with HD in an SD timeline...-2shot.png  

Doug Jensen mentions cutting with HD in an SD timeline...-closeup.png  
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Last edited by Perrone Ford; August 4th, 2009 at 11:39 AM.
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Old August 4th, 2009, 01:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
Hi Chad,
I have no interest in shooting or editing anything that is Interlaced. Interlaced looks like crap and is a relic of the past.
Not if you work with 25p. No matter how hard I try, the picture jerks around too much. You are fortunate that working with 30p is just enough to pretty much eliminate the jitters and judders of 25p.

I'm over 25p and back to 50i until I get sick of 50i. I will then yo yo back to 25p. My job tomorrow is for You Tube. Now should I record in 25p or 50i????? Decisions, decisions....
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Old August 4th, 2009, 05:54 AM   #8
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Editing HD

I basically edit everything in FCP using the XDCAM EX 1080p 25p codec and I'm quite happy. I use Motion a lot using the same format, even adding SD 4:3 footage as background montages and I do not have any issues, While I understand Doug's viewpoint I just don't see the problem that other people seem to have, OK, most of my stuff is for WEB viewing, but it still looks OK on an JVC monitor. Editing HD for me is simply easier.
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Old August 4th, 2009, 11:25 AM   #9
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Thanks for the shots & clip Perrone. It is nice to know I have some flexibility with my EX1 footage, and even to a great degree when editing for an SD final output. There are many cases when I know the final place for my footage will be SD, for local TV spots and such, and knowing someone like Doug uses SD timelines in those cases keeps down the fear of "It can't be that easy. I must be doing something wrong". It's also good to know that progressive footage can go back to an interlaced medium without looking strange. It can get confusing with all the options out there for delivery. I wish America would just move to an HD standard and leave it. I was dating a Japanese woman in 1998, and then she told me that Japan had already gone full HD with all television programming. Granted they are just one little island... It'd be nice to just have one standard, like SD was for 50 years.

I would be doing 30P already, but my boss' idea of an HD camera is the 600.00 Canon HV20 he got used, and that only does 24P. I'd rather just use my VX2100 than an HV20.
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Old August 4th, 2009, 10:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Johnson View Post
<snip> <snip> I would be doing 30P already, but my boss' idea of an HD camera is the 600.00 Canon HV20 he got used, and that only does 24P. I'd rather just use my VX2100 than an HV20.
Geez, I'm going to have to take my HV20 in for service....darn thing keeps shooting 60i footage....weird, huh? ;-)

dave
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Old August 4th, 2009, 11:35 PM   #11
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Not to slam your cam Dave. I think HV20 makes beautiful images in good light.

Here's some I shot: YouTube - fortunaevents's Channel
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Old August 4th, 2009, 11:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Johnson View Post
Not to slam your cam Dave. I think HV20 makes beautiful images in good light.

Here's some I shot: YouTube - fortunaevents's Channel
No problem, Chad. I was just responding to your statement that your HV20 only shoots 24p.
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