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Old September 7th, 2009, 08:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois Dormoy View Post
Can you really yourself control simultaneously the focus and the aperture, while ensuring the right framing ?
Yes. I would never shoot with "auto" turned on for any setting on any camera. The only exccption is audio. I use auto audio control when I don't care about the sound because I know it won't be used. Other than that, it is manual 100% of the time on everything else. It's the only way you can be sure the camera won't screw you right in the middle of a shot. Anything the camera can do, I can do better.

That has been my policy for 30 years, and the EX cameras are no different.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 09:01 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
I would never shoot with "auto" turned on for any setting on any camera.
While you're absolutely right with regards to shooting in a controlled environment - did you consider a run and gun situation in your reply?
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Old September 7th, 2009, 09:13 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
did you consider a run and gun situation in your reply?
I said 100%, didn't I? That means 100% of everything except when shooting with auto to demonstrate it for teaching purposes. This isn't just my opinion of how things should be shot, I actually do it that way. I'm not saying I get it perfect all the time, but I get it perfect more often the camera would. And I have no one else to blame but myself when I screw it up.

I think it is funny when people complain that the auto white balance, focus, iris, etc. didn't give them the results they wanted. NO KIDDING! Use them at your own risk. And when they dont work, that's just the price you pay. Be glad they worked when they did work. I'm not bashing the EX1 or EX3, because this applies to all cameras.

Go ahead and use auto if you want to, but I choose not to. Ever.
And I've been in some pretty hairy run & gun situations.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 10:10 AM   #19
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The nice thing about the EX3 and EX1, is that you can see exactly what is going on using the viewfinder. If it looks too bright or dark then generally the final result will be. Of course to make an accurate assessment, you must set up the viewfinder first and the Zebra values. I confess that sometimes for convenience I do resort to using some of the Auto functions.

Keeping a keen eye on what's happening on screen should get you out of most situations. Having said that, when the unexpected happens then you could lose a shot, but the same may be true for using the camera in full manual mode.

The best advice is to try Auto Iris, Focus, Gain, WB etc. for yourself and see if there are any limitations for your shooting style. You will soon find the pitfalls for each way of working.

I know several photographers who shoot with auto this or that and rely on - "we'll fix it in Photoshop afterwards". A poor excuse for sloppy working habits. A lot can be fixed in your NLE, but getting it right on the day has to be the best fix.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 10:25 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
NO KIDDING! Use them at your own risk. And when they dont work, that's just the price you pay. Be glad they worked when they did work. I'm not bashing the EX1 or EX3, because this applies to all cameras.
No it doesn't.

ATW on the EX1 simply doesn't work (it does excellent job in other cameras, like the V1 for instance). So, I simply never use it.

Auto Iris on the EX1 works more or less the same as in other cameras. So I use it, when necessary.

No risk involved - just using the tools that do work, in the way they have been designed to be used.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 10:38 AM   #21
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If the use of auto iris was such a big no-no do you think Canon and Fujinon would still bother putting it on top of the line $40,000 HD lenses? Fujinon do some very clever things with the auto iris on the 42x16 HD lens. You can use a small thumbwheel on the lens remote to dial in auto iris offsets while you shoot, there are many applications where auto iris is essential.

When shooting airshows where the aircraft goes from being close to the ground, backlit, to high in the sky front lit the exposure change is so massive that you simply must adjust the exposure. On a long lens, or even full telephoto on the EX, as that aircraft then comes towards you at 400mph your pulling focus like crazy with one hand, adjusting the zoom the zoom with the other. At the sam time panning and tilting the tripod smoothly. If you want your exposure to be correct you have no choice other than to use auto iris or get a focus puller.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 12:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
Doug, with all due respect - get real, please. While you're absolutely right with regards to shooting in a controlled environment - did you consider a run and gun situation in your reply?

I guess not :)
I shoot run and gun in manual everything mode all the time and like Doug I've done that with a range of cameras for years. Sure, there are times when auto something is handy but it's not so difficult.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 02:08 PM   #23
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It is not impossible to control zoom, focus, iris and framing simultaneously. Like anything else it's just training the fingers. That's why a camera operator charges $750 a day, without a package. Well, that's one reason.

But there is a time and place for Auto I say. Like when I have a bullet proof vest on about to tail a SWAT team storming into a druglord's base of operations. You can bet your pretty penny I have one finger on the Auto/Manual switch to go either way in a second because it's all about pictures for a hard news story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
If the use of auto iris was such a big no-no do you think Canon and Fujinon would still bother putting it on top of the line $40,000 HD lenses? Fujinon do some very clever things with the auto iris on the 42x16 HD lens. You can use a small thumbwheel on the lens remote to dial in auto iris offsets while you shoot, there are many applications where auto iris is essential.
To take that further, look at the 55x, 70x and 100x plus broadcast lenses. There is no Auto/Manual switch. It's always Auto. If it was not, you could not control them at the engineering desk along with the other ten cameras in manual! I admit, such a bad example but you opened the door to a good one Alister. Even with some 19x and 20x (don't remember models offhand) ENG lenses you can tweak Auto iris range, create a custom iris window to restrict response and adjust highlight response. Auto Iris has come some way since Beta SP.

Oh and be happy you have TLCS in EX guys. Most big cameras do not so this is a treat. TLCS is the domain of a painter/engineer with the big cams. You can tweak TLCS to give you exceptable results when you run out of fingers. TLCS use does not automatically equal "Gain". And don't forget Tracing Speed can make less amateur looking the auto iris response.

All about tools. Any time anyone says "this is the only way to do it" someone else will come along and be successful doing the exact opposite. Yes, you must absolutely learn all the rules to be able to understand the most important rule -- that there are no rules.

How about this one: Rules are made to be broken but you have to know what you are breaking to break it effectively. Otherwise you are a like a innocent little happy clown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
TLCS settings are sort of permanent (e.g. the Level is active all the time when Auto Iris is on).
Auto Iris is not tied to TLCS by default. You can use Auto Iris without TLCS.

TLCS is tied to Full Auto mode by default.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 02:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post

No risk involved - just using the tools that do work, in the way they have been designed to be used.
If you think the camera is going to do a better job than you can do yourself, then you are probably right. I suggest that you use auto.

The only reason I got on this thread was to correct the notion that you can't run a camera in 100% manual mode. I can. Everyone I hire does too. It is not even hard, let alone impossible.

Also, just because a manufacturer chooses to put a feature on a camera does not mean an experienced professional should use it. That is absurd.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 02:26 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
When shooting airshows where the aircraft goes from being close to the ground, backlit, to high in the sky front lit the exposure change is so massive that you simply must adjust the exposure. On a long lens, or even full telephoto on the EX, as that aircraft then comes towards you at 400mph your pulling focus like crazy with one hand, adjusting the zoom the zoom with the other. At the sam time panning and tilting the tripod smoothly. If you want your exposure to be correct you have no choice other than to use auto iris or get a focus puller.
Really?
Then how did I manage to shoot this air show with no automatic iris, no ATW white balance, no auto-focus, no expanded focus, no external monitor, no focus puller, and no rear zoom control. Just the camera, a matte box, and a good tripod.

http://vimeo.com/5425091

I've got 2 hours of equally solid footage, with practially no junk that couldn't be used. I know 1/2 a dozen guys within a 25 mile radius that could have done the same thing. It's nothing special or out of the ordinary. This is just a normal day's shooting.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 03:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Max Allen View Post
Auto Iris is not tied to TLCS by default. You can use Auto Iris without TLCS.

TLCS is tied to Full Auto mode by default.
Correction:

TLCS (apart from its other functions) is the way to turn the iris, gain, and shutter speed auto modes on and off independently of each other. This is how it differs from the Full Auto mode, which puts everything on auto simultaneously (i.e. the iris, gain, shutter speed - but also white balance).

So, I stand by what I said:

- need to offset auto iris permanently? use Level in TLCS
- need to offset it on a shot-to-shot basis? use Direct menu's joystick.

If my advice to the OP has been the former, is because - if I could operate the joystick during a shot, I could operate the iris ring, so no need fro auto iris.

To each his (its) own.

Oh, and Max - did you read the OP's message in this thread? I was merely answering his inquiry about offsetting the auto iris, which seemed to overexpose the picture to him.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 04:01 PM   #27
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Nice footage Doug,

The planes fly over my house on the approach to the RI Air Show and the biplanes practice in our area the week prior. Fun Stuff

I agree with Doug full manual can be used if the camera is within reach. What do people do who walk or run with stabilizing rigs?

I posted above that I use auto iris on the EX1. It is not a normal on the ground tripod or shoulder mounted shoot. The camera is mounted on a gyro system at full arms reach away when I use auto iris. I only do this if we are circling. If you touch the camera you disrupt the gyro systems balance and miss the shot till you dial the gyros back in. Now if there was a control system that I could afford, where all manual controls where at my finger tip then I would go full manual.

This is my reason to upgrade to an EX3. With some of the optional lens you can buy handle controls that would do the job besides having better glass.

I think we should all agree to disagree here. What works for you is what you should do.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 04:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
Correction:

TLCS (apart from its other functions) is the way to turn the iris, gain, and shutter speed auto modes on and off independently of each other. This is how it differs from the Full Auto mode, which puts everything on auto simultaneously (i.e. the iris, gain, shutter speed - but also white balance).
Indeed, you can have TLCS without Full Auto. But you can't have Full Auto without TLCS. You can't turn Auto Iris on and off through TLCS though. Did you make a slip there? Good times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki View Post
Correction:
Oh, and Max - did you read the OP's message in this thread? I was merely answering his inquiry about offsetting the auto iris, which seemed to overexpose the picture to him.
I did and noticed your answer was dead on. I just thought you meant anytime there's Auto-Iris there's TLCS and that caught my attention.

I also made a slip, most engineers won't be caught dead using TLCS for a TV show but Sony designed it dating back to SD with them in mind. That doesn't mean I disagree with its use. In that world I may activate it momentarily in a crunch to let the operator set his frame offline when there is no light. No question a fallback measure. Like I said, TLCS has a stigma of being associated with Auto gain. Gain = NoNo for non-news live TV.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 06:04 PM   #29
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I would also add that it is definitely a plus to use your Histogram in conjunction with Zebras and Auto Iris function.

You can avoid clipping (overexposing) altogether by double-checking with the Histo.

I often use Auto Iris as a second opinion.

But since I use the Histo all the time these days, the Auto Iris is has become the third opinion.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 06:23 PM   #30
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I often use Auto Iris as a second opinion.
I actually use Auto-Iris as the first opinion. I will usually switch to auto iris to see what the camera suggests, and to get me in the ballpark, then I immediately switch back to manual and adjust the iris (if necessary) based on the zebras and my instincts. If it's smaller than f/4, then I move to the next higher ND and check the auto-iris again. The key, is that I never leave the iris on auto while I'm shooting. When I say I never use auto-iris, that is what I mean.

Paul,
The jets fly right over my house, too. I couldn't resist going down and shooting them this year. I'm glad I picked Saturday because Sunday was overcast. Thanks for the comments. One of these days we have got to get together.
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