Need to learn about shutter speed at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 12th, 2009, 02:03 AM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 44
Need to learn about shutter speed

I'm an experienced still photographer, so I have a grasp of shutter speed and aperture in a still camera, but I'm a video newb and a little confused with the application of shutter speed in video cameras. If you could indulge me and help me to understand the basics of shutter speed in a video camera, it would be much appreciated.

I understand that increased shutter speed in a still camera "stops" the action more as the shutter speed increases, but rarely do I see any advice to use some of the higher shutter speed capabilities of the EX3. It appears the standard is to choose a shutter speed that's double the frame rate - is this correct? If so, why is this preferred and for what purpose are the higher shutter speeds used? I noticed the EX3 can go up to 1/500.

There's also an option to shut off the shutter. For what purpose is this mode and is the result more desireable in some circumstances?

Lastly, is the shutter speed indicated in fractions of a second as in still cameras, or is the unit of measurement different?

Any feedback is much appreciated.
Steve Pond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2009, 03:29 AM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 402
Hi
If you use a very high shutter speed when shooting video, you get a very "video" or "homevideo" feel to the footage.
Usually you double the shutterspeed to the framerate to get some motionblur and thus a more pleasing image.
You can of course use the shutterspeed for effect. If you have seen Saving Private Ryan, the opening scene is shot with a 45 degree shutter (you use angels on 35mm cameras).
This is similar to high shutterspeed.
It gives you a kind of strobe effect since there is no motion blur at all.
The shutter speed is in fraction of a second.

When I shoot sports I do tend to use a bit higher shutter speed, like 100-250 (PAL land)

When I was in LA shooting with a PAL camera under fluorescent light I got a pulsating image when using a shutter of 1/50.
Changing the shutter to 1/60 solves the problem.
The shutter matches the frequency og the electric network, (Europe 50hz and US 60hz)
Joachim Hoge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2009, 05:02 PM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 462
You can also use a high speed shutter for effect. The fighting scenes in Gladiator and the D-day scen in Saving private Ryan are two good examples of how a high speed shutter intensifies the "feel" of the scenes.
__________________
Ola Christoffersson, Kamrat produktion, Stockholm - Sweden
www.kamrat.tv
Ola Christoffersson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2009, 08:34 PM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 44
Thank you both very much for the information. What is the effect of turning the shutter off?
Steve Pond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2009, 09:57 PM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Studio Alnitak, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 640
Images: 3
Turning the shutter off, in progressive frame mode, gives a shutter speed inversely equal to the frame rate. For example, 25 fps will be 1.25th second. More obvious when you think in terms of shutter angle, shutter off being equivalent to a 360 degree shutter angle. Maybe this is obvious only if you are used to film cameras, which have a mechanical rotating shutter.
Serena Steuart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2009, 07:30 AM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 402
If Im not mistaken it just sets the shutterspeed to "standard". 1/50 if you shoot 25P etc
Joachim Hoge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2009, 07:40 AM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
When shutter is off the shutter is still active and will operate at either the frame rate in progressive or the field rate in interlace. So at 25P it will be 1/25th and at 50i it will be 1/50th.
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com
Alister Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2009, 07:43 AM   #8
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim Hoge View Post
If Im not mistaken it just sets the shutterspeed to "standard". 1/50 if you shoot 25P etc
Not quite so:)

With 25p, shutter off equals 1/25th of a second, meaning frame rate=shutter rate.

With 50i, shutter off equals 1/50th of a second, meaning field rate=shutter rate.

Oops, looks like we were typing simultaneously, Alister:)
__________________
Sony PXW-FS7 | DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive
Piotr Wozniacki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2009, 08:04 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 402
Thanks for clearing that up. I just presumed it would simulate film shooting when in 25p and since a 35mm camera with a 180 degree shutter has the equivalent at a 1/48 shutter speed
Joachim Hoge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2009, 10:13 AM   #10
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Kennewick, WA
Posts: 1,124
My non-technical suggestion would be too shoot some video with and without the shutter turned on. When ever you turn on the shutter you loose a little light sensitivity. The faster shutter speed you set, the more light sensitivity you loose.

I normally shoot with the shutter off. But if I have to do a lot of panning or I'm shooting fast moving objects, I turn the shutter on. But if definitely give your footage a different look (more flicker) so you need to decide for yourself whether you like the look or not.

Good luck! :)
__________________
Sony EX3, Canon 5D MkII, Chrosziel Matte Box, Sachtler tripod, Steadicam Flyer, Mac Pro, Apple/Adobe software - 20 years as a local videographer/editor
Mitchell Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2009, 01:45 PM   #11
Better than Halle Berry
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 435
I've always felt the shutter off mode is kind of misleading as a camera menu convention. It's always on you're just matching frame rate to shutter speed. Also I usually go up one notch from that because right at 'shutter off' motion is smeary with ghost trails that look distinctly video-ish. Whereas 1/100 or more makes things look far too strobby unless you're going for Saving Private Ryan. Looks cool on sports though.

Noah
Noah Kadner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2009, 12:16 AM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Newport Beach, CA
Posts: 44
Thanks again for all the guidance. Yes, I could just turn the camera on and shoot at the various shutter speeds, but I don't even know the scanarios in which the differences might become apparent. I don't expect to learn everything from the forums, but I'm being "baptised by fire" so to speak, and I truly appreciate any guidance that will help to prevent a mistake on my part because I didn't know to look out "X" under "Y" conditions.

So, if you will indulge me, I'd like to follow up on one of the comments that shutter speed of 1/100 will cause a strobe effect like Saving Private Ryan (good to know, thank you) then for what purpose would I need shutter speeds of up to 1/2000 as provided by the EX-3? Is there any reason to shoot with much quicker shutter speeds, or is it just a marketing tool for the "it must be better - the shutter goes all the way up to 1/2000" crowd?
Steve Pond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2009, 01:49 AM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Billericay, England UK
Posts: 4,711
I'm pretty sure (though I have no proof) that Spielberg used far higher shutter speeds than 1/100th sec for bits of Band of Brothers, Minority Report, Ryan.

Look at it this way - if you shoot at 1/50th sec (PAL) your camcorder captures everything, so each field starts where the other left off. So a car crossing the frame shows smooth subject blur. If you shoot at 1/100th there's less subject blur, but it's as if every other field has been deleted. At 1/200th sec it's as if 3 out of 4 fields have been deleted, and action starts to look jerky.

But Ryan's staccato scenes were far more likely to be shot at 1/500th sec per frame to really ram home the effect. Speeds up to 1/2000th sec are fun speeds more than anything - you'll need lots of light of course but you'll capture sharp 'drops of milk into the tea' sort of shots.

When I shoot my swimmers with a view to printing or emailing frames I switch out the NDs and select something like 1/600th sec. At 25 fps I can catch the peak of the action (dives, butterfly etc) with hardly any camera or motion blur evident. Watching the footage as a video though is not nice - more like a flip-book of motor-drive frames.

tom.
Tom Hardwick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2009, 02:25 AM   #14
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 1,521
When you think about it, for all the range of shutter speeds, aperture, gain and focal lengths etc available on our cameras there often is remarkably little choice as to what combination to use if we have a clear idea of how the shot is to look and are striving for the highest technical quality. For the novice it can be daunting to know where to start with all the variables. For the more experienced it can be more like finding the one combination that will nail it without putting unrealistic constraints on the lighting.
Colin McDonald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2009, 02:31 AM   #15
Trustee
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Malvern UK
Posts: 1,931
Quote:
But Ryan's staccato scenes were far more likely to be shot at 1/500th sec per frame
They used a 45 degree shutter. Closest you can get with the EX would be 1/180th or thereabouts.
Simon Wyndham is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:14 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network