Thinking of getting an SXS card.

Damian Heffernan · October 6th, 2009, 06:53 AM

Cheaper to get 2 16GB by the looks of it. I can get a 16GB for $730AU or a 32GB for $1580AU.
The hard drive unit (PHU 120K) 120GB size goes for $1566 (but no over cranking).

Craig Seeman · October 6th, 2009, 07:16 AM

I guess it depends on your shoot situations but dumping to laptop during a shoot is the BIGGEST risk. It's seems the bulk of the issues are "human error" that happen during a shoot and most of those were during the laptop dump.

Should I list all the risks?
Bad copy and not knowing until after the card is erased.
Risk of the hard drive failing itself.
Rushing to pull the card from the camera.
Erasing the wrong card.
Risk of damage to the laptop.
Risk of laptop being stolen.
Various risks around the laptop losing power at a critical moment.
Interruption of the shoot to insert and remove card.
Having the laptop in a convenient place.
In some situations the act of booting the laptop (screen light and startup chime) can be an interruption.

You can swear up and down you'll be careful and the above but there are so many points of failure and so many posts about them that it's a risk EASILY avoided.
Two to four 32GB cards can get you through even a very long shoot day without ever offloading and rarely having to pull a card.

You can spend $1700 - $3400 on 2 to 4 32GB SxS or you can spend about $350-$700 on the equivalent number of adaptors and good tested SDHC (mine have NEVER failed me EVER).

I see NO POINT in using 16GB SxS at all (get 32GB if you must). The only reason to use 16GB SDHC is that the client can leave with the "master" if they like and you can bill them for the "stock."

Anthony McErlean · October 6th, 2009, 07:42 AM

Thanks again Craig, for all that advice.
I was thinking, (just thinking) that if I got a 32gb sxs card that would leave me with almost 3hrs of recording time and I have enough SDHC cards if needed to finish the shoot on the day.

That leaves me not having to offload the cards till I get home to my PC.
What I have done in the past is to offload to the PC (all with CB) and when complete, bring the clips into the Edius timeline and leave them there till its time for me to work with them.
This also lets me check everything I've recorded on the day.

Steve Kalle · October 6th, 2009, 10:11 AM

I don't know if B&H ships to you but they have the SanDisk SxS 8GB cards which are the exact same as the Sony SxS(SanDisk makes the Sony SxS cards). 1 for $199, 2 for 189 each or 3 or more for 179 each. I think it was Doug Jensen who likes to use 8GB cards so he can easily back em up to DL DVDs - just an idea.

SanDisk | SxS ExpressCard 8GB | SDX-VS-008GR | B&H Photo Video

Bill Long · October 6th, 2009, 10:53 AM

Steve,if Sandisk makes the Sony SxS media,why is BH PHOTO showing Sony 8g cards
as discontinued.The fact is Sandisk does not show any SxS media on their website.
They do not have any 16g cards for sale and they never released 32g cards.Someone should confirm with Sandisk if they are still committed to support SxS media.

Regards

John Hedgecoe · October 6th, 2009, 09:07 PM

I have 2 x 8GB SxS and 2 x 16GB SxS cards. If I were you I would now buy 32GB SxS cards. That was not an option when I bought my 16GB cards. And since then, Sony have dropped the price too.

As for off loading in the field. I agree with what has been said. Too much potential for problems and should be avoided if at all possible.

Anthony McErlean · October 7th, 2009, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hedgecoe

If I were you I would now buy 32GB SxS cards.

Thanks again for all the advice, it really is very helpful.

I think I might go for the 32gb card, it works out cheaper than two 16gb cards, this will give me 3hrs of recording time with SxS cards and that is enough to cover all or most of my wedding and finish the rest out, if needed, with SDHC cards.

Even when I offload to the PC HDrive and in turn back it up again I will think it strange to reuse the cards before I even get a chance to work on the project. That will seam strange and somehow not right but thats the way it has to be,...after 28yrs+ of being able to keep the master tape until the bride and groom have collected their tape/DVD.

Thanks all.

Paul Joy · October 7th, 2009, 09:00 AM

Sometimes you just have to trust in the technology, it can be nerve wrecking but it just has to be done sometimes. The biggest worry is that you fowl something up yourself so the best thing to do is figure out a workflow whereby you have the confidence to reuse the cards.

Some of the events I do require me to be shooting 16 hrs a day for 3 - 5 days. I'm obviously not recording constantly but I like to have enough SxS media to see me through each day without the need to erase anything in the field. I currently have enough capacity for 5 hrs of footage which so far has always been enough to last a day.

At the end of each day my workflow is to check how many clips are on each card (using the camera info) and then offload them using the expresscard slot in my macbook pro. I create a separate folder for each card and then copy them using Sony clip browser with error checking enabled. Once I've offloaded all of the cards I've used I then make a copy of all of those folders to an external drive (just using finder drag n drop).

You can of course combine multiple cards into a single BPAV folder, but I like the reassurance of seeing a folder for each card and knowing that each one has a unique set of clips in it. I often combine them once I'm at the editing stage where I copy the clips onto my main archive drives.

Once i have each folder on two drives I then have a browse through the clips in clip browser to check that the clip numbers are sequential and that nothing obvious is missing. I also compare the number of clips in each BPAV to the number of clips on each card. I also select a few of the clips that I know are the better ones and play them back to make sure the data on the drive is good.

This may all sound obsessive, but it's easy to make a mistake after doing 16hr days and I sleep much better knowing that I've gone through a fixed process that proves the data from each card is stored on two hard drives before going to that nasty 'delete all clips' option in the menu!

And by the way, there's absolutely no way I'd use anything but proper SxS cards.

Anthony McErlean · October 7th, 2009, 11:14 AM

Thanks for those tips Paul. I will have to get a workflow sorted and yours looks as good as any. I also copy each SDHC card to its own folder, Card 1 Card 2 and so on.
I could have 6 sub folders all with in the one folder.

So once the SxS cards are copied to their own folders in the HD with Clip Browser its just a copy and paste to another folder after that, no need for CB this time.

Doug Jensen · October 7th, 2009, 01:04 PM

I wouldn't buy any extra cards at this time if you already have at least two.
I'd wait for the PXU-MS240 in November.

Sony | Product Catalog - Recordable Media

SYPHA - Sony announces the PXU-MS240 mobile storage unit for use with XDCAM EX camcorders and decks

I'm told it will be around $1400 with one cartridge, but who knows what it will really cost when it FINALLY comes out.

Colin Rowe · October 7th, 2009, 01:47 PM

Bloody expensive HDD, and that, at the end of the day is all it is, with Sony pricing of course.

Doug Jensen · October 7th, 2009, 02:54 PM

I disagree. It is much more than an ordinary HDD.
It is more like getting a 240GB SxS card for only $1400.

10x transfer speed
Data/error checking
Battery operation
No computer needed
eSata and USB connectivity for offloading to a computer

Most importantly, it's an affordable way to work without buying a lot of cards or risking the the dangers of using SD cards.

David Heath · October 7th, 2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hedgecoe

Only SxS cards for me. It just is not worth the risk to loose shots due to a 'media error' with SDHC. I have also never (knock on wood) had a problem with SxS.

But going to SxS is not a no-risk situation as I said before. You're simply changing the risk, and IMO probably increasing it overall. Look at this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...e-no-hope.html and the alternative problems you can get if you're forced to download/format to free up card space.

Quote:

"Recovering files *from* formatted SxS - am I right that there is no hope?" is actually what I had hoped to write!

Stupidly formatted a card having mistakenly thought that it had been downloaded.

Believe me, it's not the only case I know of something similar happening, and with P2 as well as SxS. Not done it myself, (yet) but it's why I favour tried and trusted SDHC cards. Everyone seems to think "but I'd never do that!" - until they do it!

John Hedgecoe · October 7th, 2009, 08:18 PM

Mostly you are talking about human error as the prime cause for data loss. In that case NO MEDIA will be problem free.

However, the MxR/SDHC solution is not a wise choice if the footage you are recording is important to you. There are just too many variables that are unknown, especially when it comes to how the SDHC cards perform.

No thanks, I will stick with SxS.

As for that Sony SxS card reader.... A very pricey hard disk transfer solution. A laptop would not only be better, but cheaper and certainly as fast.

Tom Daigon · October 7th, 2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hedgecoe

Mostly you are talking about human error as the prime cause for data loss. In that case NO MEDIA will be problem free.

However, the MxR/SDHC solution is not a wise choice if the footage you are recording is important to you. There are just too many variables that are unknown, especially when it comes to how the SDHC cards perform.

No thanks, I will stick with SxS.

As for that Sony SxS card reader.... A very pricey hard disk transfer solution. A laptop would not only be better, but cheaper and certainly as fast.

If you have a laptop ;-)

October 7th, 2009, 09:00 AM	#23
Paul Joy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 627	Sometimes you just have to trust in the technology, it can be nerve wrecking but it just has to be done sometimes. The biggest worry is that you fowl something up yourself so the best thing to do is figure out a workflow whereby you have the confidence to reuse the cards. Some of the events I do require me to be shooting 16 hrs a day for 3 - 5 days. I'm obviously not recording constantly but I like to have enough SxS media to see me through each day without the need to erase anything in the field. I currently have enough capacity for 5 hrs of footage which so far has always been enough to last a day. At the end of each day my workflow is to check how many clips are on each card (using the camera info) and then offload them using the expresscard slot in my macbook pro. I create a separate folder for each card and then copy them using Sony clip browser with error checking enabled. Once I've offloaded all of the cards I've used I then make a copy of all of those folders to an external drive (just using finder drag n drop). You can of course combine multiple cards into a single BPAV folder, but I like the reassurance of seeing a folder for each card and knowing that each one has a unique set of clips in it. I often combine them once I'm at the editing stage where I copy the clips onto my main archive drives. Once i have each folder on two drives I then have a browse through the clips in clip browser to check that the clip numbers are sequential and that nothing obvious is missing. I also compare the number of clips in each BPAV to the number of clips on each card. I also select a few of the clips that I know are the better ones and play them back to make sure the data on the drive is good. This may all sound obsessive, but it's easy to make a mistake after doing 16hr days and I sleep much better knowing that I've gone through a fixed process that proves the data from each card is stored on two hard drives before going to that nasty 'delete all clips' option in the menu! And by the way, there's absolutely no way I'd use anything but proper SxS cards. __________________ Blog: www.pauljoy.com Company: www.videotrader.co.uk

October 7th, 2009, 01:04 PM	#25
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,417	I wouldn't buy any extra cards at this time if you already have at least two. I'd wait for the PXU-MS240 in November. Sony \| Product Catalog - Recordable Media SYPHA - Sony announces the PXU-MS240 mobile storage unit for use with XDCAM EX camcorders and decks I'm told it will be around $1400 with one cartridge, but who knows what it will really cost when it FINALLY comes out. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

October 7th, 2009, 01:47 PM	#26
Colin Rowe Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cornwall UK Posts: 793	Bloody expensive HDD, and that, at the end of the day is all it is, with Sony pricing of course. __________________ Colin

October 7th, 2009, 02:54 PM	#27
Doug Jensen Vortex Media Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,417	I disagree. It is much more than an ordinary HDD. It is more like getting a 240GB SxS card for only $1400. 10x transfer speed Data/error checking Battery operation No computer needed eSata and USB connectivity for offloading to a computer Most importantly, it's an affordable way to work without buying a lot of cards or risking the the dangers of using SD cards. __________________ Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/ Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools

October 6th, 2009, 06:53 AM	#16
Damian Heffernan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: c Australia Posts: 234	Cheaper to get 2 16GB by the looks of it. I can get a 16GB for $730AU or a 32GB for $1580AU. The hard drive unit (PHU 120K) 120GB size goes for $1566 (but no over cranking).

October 6th, 2009, 07:16 AM	#17
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	I guess it depends on your shoot situations but dumping to laptop during a shoot is the BIGGEST risk. It's seems the bulk of the issues are "human error" that happen during a shoot and most of those were during the laptop dump. Should I list all the risks? Bad copy and not knowing until after the card is erased. Risk of the hard drive failing itself. Rushing to pull the card from the camera. Erasing the wrong card. Risk of damage to the laptop. Risk of laptop being stolen. Various risks around the laptop losing power at a critical moment. Interruption of the shoot to insert and remove card. Having the laptop in a convenient place. In some situations the act of booting the laptop (screen light and startup chime) can be an interruption. You can swear up and down you'll be careful and the above but there are so many points of failure and so many posts about them that it's a risk EASILY avoided. Two to four 32GB cards can get you through even a very long shoot day without ever offloading and rarely having to pull a card. You can spend $1700 - $3400 on 2 to 4 32GB SxS or you can spend about $350-$700 on the equivalent number of adaptors and good tested SDHC (mine have NEVER failed me EVER). I see NO POINT in using 16GB SxS at all (get 32GB if you must). The only reason to use 16GB SDHC is that the client can leave with the "master" if they like and you can bill them for the "stock."

October 6th, 2009, 07:42 AM	#18
Anthony McErlean Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,076	Thanks again Craig, for all that advice. I was thinking, (just thinking) that if I got a 32gb sxs card that would leave me with almost 3hrs of recording time and I have enough SDHC cards if needed to finish the shoot on the day. That leaves me not having to offload the cards till I get home to my PC. What I have done in the past is to offload to the PC (all with CB) and when complete, bring the clips into the Edius timeline and leave them there till its time for me to work with them. This also lets me check everything I've recorded on the day.

October 6th, 2009, 10:11 AM	#19
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	I don't know if B&H ships to you but they have the SanDisk SxS 8GB cards which are the exact same as the Sony SxS(SanDisk makes the Sony SxS cards). 1 for $199, 2 for 189 each or 3 or more for 179 each. I think it was Doug Jensen who likes to use 8GB cards so he can easily back em up to DL DVDs - just an idea. SanDisk \| SxS ExpressCard 8GB \| SDX-VS-008GR \| B&H Photo Video

October 6th, 2009, 10:53 AM	#20
Bill Long New Boot Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Toronto, Ontario Canada Posts: 13	Steve,if Sandisk makes the Sony SxS media,why is BH PHOTO showing Sony 8g cards as discontinued.The fact is Sandisk does not show any SxS media on their website. They do not have any 16g cards for sale and they never released 32g cards.Someone should confirm with Sandisk if they are still committed to support SxS media. Regards

October 6th, 2009, 09:07 PM	#21
John Hedgecoe Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 146	I have 2 x 8GB SxS and 2 x 16GB SxS cards. If I were you I would now buy 32GB SxS cards. That was not an option when I bought my 16GB cards. And since then, Sony have dropped the price too. As for off loading in the field. I agree with what has been said. Too much potential for problems and should be avoided if at all possible.

October 7th, 2009, 11:14 AM	#24
Anthony McErlean Trustee Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,076	Thanks for those tips Paul. I will have to get a workflow sorted and yours looks as good as any. I also copy each SDHC card to its own folder, Card 1 Card 2 and so on. I could have 6 sub folders all with in the one folder. So once the SxS cards are copied to their own folders in the HD with Clip Browser its just a copy and paste to another folder after that, no need for CB this time.

October 7th, 2009, 08:18 PM	#29
John Hedgecoe Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 146	Mostly you are talking about human error as the prime cause for data loss. In that case NO MEDIA will be problem free. However, the MxR/SDHC solution is not a wise choice if the footage you are recording is important to you. There are just too many variables that are unknown, especially when it comes to how the SDHC cards perform. No thanks, I will stick with SxS. As for that Sony SxS card reader.... A very pricey hard disk transfer solution. A laptop would not only be better, but cheaper and certainly as fast.