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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
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Old October 19th, 2009, 09:05 PM   #1
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Hours counter

does anyone know if the hours counter count hours of recording time or hours of the camera being turned on? i just rented out my EX1 to and Art Director, who i don't know btw, who said she needed it as a prop. i gave them a really, really good deal on the rental so, i only gave them the camera. no batts, no cards. i marked down the hours before i handed it over to their driver. i just want to make sure they don't end up using their own cards and batts. hence my question above.

thanks.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 09:46 PM   #2
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Last edited by Craig Seeman; October 19th, 2009 at 11:17 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 10:15 PM   #3
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So you rented them the camera under the condition they don't record? The rental price changes depending how they use it? Did you seriously tell them they were going to be charged by "hours on the meter?" Sorry but this sounds absurd.

When someone rents a camera for a day they pay for the day whether it's a paper weight or the "A" camera on the shoot. You have to assume the use. You can't prevent them from using their own batter and cards nor should that even be a concern. People rent when they need and don't rent what they don't need.
what the hell did you read in my post? you've assumed a lot. big mistake pal and don't tell me how to rent my camera out. you can do whatever you want with yours and i'll do whatever i want with mine. understood? this forum is supposed to help people. its not for people to assume and critique how others handle their business. i'm looking for a specific answer not your advice or opinion. find something else to do with your time.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 10:31 PM   #4
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I do belief it has to do with the "time" it has been on, as in power run time. when I rent out my EX3...I always reset the hours meter and make a note of the present time

As one must be careful these days as I got my EX3 back, last July and it had 15 hours of use it....strange for a 1 day rental....so, now I always check it.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 10:40 PM   #5
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Last edited by Craig Seeman; October 19th, 2009 at 11:18 PM.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 10:42 PM   #6
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thanks william. 15 hours doesn't sound that unusual. i just got off a Lady Gaga video with back to back 20+ hour days. granted we didn't shoot every minute of those hours, but if the camera is left on, and the counter is rolling, i can see how 15 hours can add up in one day. i guess i'll have to test this when i get my camera back. thanks again.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 10:49 PM   #7
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And that may include warning people about bad or untenable business practices.

You didn't simply ask about hours you brought up a rental. If you were going to rent based on hours wouldn't you first determine you could verify BEFORE you rented the camera?

One can turn on the camera and leave it in standby mode for a couple of hours to determine whether it adds the hours. Based on other Sony "Solid State" recording gear, hours is on time. One could check the clip numbering system to see if that advance but they can certainly reset or or change the clip counter.
i have no idea what your deal is. i never told them i'd charge them by the hour. i just wanted to know if the counter is based on the camera being turned on or by record time. i'd just like to know if it was used as a prop or if they ended up shooting with it. "standby mode" : of course, but i'd like to know now and not when i get the camera back. "clips" : obviously. please don't post a reply to this thread. your comments are unhelpful.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 10:50 PM   #8
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So yeah, it's power-on hours, not record hours or drum hours (hehe).

And for future reference, there are two counters, one that cannot be reset and one that can. I used to reset the counter and account for power-on-hours for each project, but then my projects started to interleave so now I just write down the value in the non-resettable counter at the beginning and at the end and subtract.

(and don't shoot me - I'm just quoting a movie - but it seems that someone ".. is having a bad case of the mooondaaays" )
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Old October 19th, 2009, 10:55 PM   #9
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cool. thanks. so its like a "trip" counter and a permanent counter on your car's odometer.
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Old October 19th, 2009, 11:15 PM   #10
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Culture Clash

Michael is from LA and Craig is from NY... Get the culture clash picture! Be nice guys!
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Old October 19th, 2009, 11:20 PM   #11
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someone having a bit of an ego issue?

Michael, check your ego at the door will ya? You were way outta line. The way it looks, Craig was simply trying to help you, and you jump all over the guy. I know I'm new here, and you guys have been posting way more than I have, but I do read alot of posts. Someday very soon, I'll own the gear I learn about on here. Your post really sounded the way Craig took it (I took it the same way), and I believe he responded appropriately. I rent my gear out as well, and a day rental is just that, a day rental wether they use it or it sits there. Why would you need the counter info? I wonder how you're able to shoot at all... with your head being so oversized can you see the viewfinder? Lighten up people!

Craig: keep the comments and postings coming.

(just imagine the response THIS will get,...gheeeesh)
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Old October 19th, 2009, 11:48 PM   #12
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I deleted the posts since apparently Mike didn't appreciate them.

If I see someone walking into heavy traffic I might push them out of the way of the oncoming bus. If all the know is my push and not the bus . . . or maybe all you heared is my very loud shout "Don't."

The point is all one will know is the on time, not the record time. You may (or may not) have been taken advantage of.

The risk to gear sitting on a table (or whatever) is not significantly less then if it were sitting on a tripod. In both cases it can get knocked over, stuff dropped on it, etc..

With tape based cameras the number of threadings, play and record hours, wear the heads and the tape path. One can make an argument that a commitment to not insert a tape and record or play might be worth a discount.

In a solid state camera, short of mishandling, or frequent card insertions, there's not that much difference between on, recording and off. And there's very little to verify beyond on and off other than hours which has far less wear than with aforementioned tape base camera.

I'm sorry if this information bothers you Mike but there's very little difference between on and off in a solid state camera (compared to tape based) and the risk and wear on the camera is about the same whether the camera is a prop or recording.

You didn't just ask a technical question. You put it in the business context. I answered both since you offered both. One can warn someone of BOTH Technical and Business mistakes.

I've had friends do exactly what you did . . . even renting to friends let alone someone they didn't know. They got back a damaged camera and there was no insurance nor proof whether the damage was pre-existing. You can have 0 hours and hairline crack in the body or the lens that you may not find until some time later. Rental price is based on risk, not just use. Wear and tear happens whether the camera is on or off especially since head wear doesn't enter into the picture. That is FRIENDLY advice (even if you don't like my shouted warning).
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Old October 20th, 2009, 01:20 AM   #13
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Thomas, I won't even bother wasting my time with you.

Craig, to me there's a big difference between shooting with MY camera or using it as a prop. "props", if sitting on a tripod or a table perhaps have less of a chance of getting damaged then if its let's say being operated handheld for instance. just think of all the different ways you've seen a camera used while shooting compare to a camera used as a prop. as you suggested, i'm not concerned about wear and tear because of the solid state media only physical wear and tear/damage from operating.
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Old October 20th, 2009, 03:21 AM   #14
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Lighten up Michael, we are a happy and friendly bunch here. :-)
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Old October 20th, 2009, 09:02 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Michael B. McGee View Post
Thomas, I won't even bother wasting my time with you.

Craig, to me there's a big difference between shooting with MY camera or using it as a prop. "props", if sitting on a tripod or a table perhaps have less of a chance of getting damaged then if its let's say being operated handheld for instance. just think of all the different ways you've seen a camera used while shooting compare to a camera used as a prop. as you suggested, i'm not concerned about wear and tear because of the solid state media only physical wear and tear/damage from operating.
A prop doesn't preclude it from being used like a live camera. If an actor were holding the camera in a scene in which they were playing a TV camera person or paparazzi they'd be hand holding it and there would be no hours progression if they didn't turn on the camera.

The camera on/off state has very little impact on the risk. Props can fall off tables or things can fall on them just as easily as if sitting on a tripod. Props and cameras can both be hand held and dropped. Props can be placed on tripods too . . . and fall. Any prop master can tell you a score of stories about props damaged in use.
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