Considering EX1 for feature, but I'm scared of rolling shutter at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 18th, 2010, 09:36 AM   #1
New Boot
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 6
Considering EX1 for feature, but I'm scared of rolling shutter

So I'm going to make my first feature in a few months and I'm trying to decide on a camera. I know there has been heaps of discussion about the ex1 and rolling shutter, but hear me out.

The movie is an action movie with heaps of driving around and cars crashing. I've used the EX1 before and think it's an awesome camera and would certainly choose it for the production but there is the problem of rolling shutter.

The camera will be used for handheld and for mounting to cars. From what I've read these are the things not suited to the EX1, but I'd like to know from anyone who may have used the camera for this sort of extreme movement. The movie is to be shot mostly in harsh sunlight and also some low light with some action.

Are there any other cameras people have used an could recommend? If we don't go the EX1 we would most likely use an HM100 for the action stuff and a GH1 or 5DMII for the other less frantic stuff. We were also considering the HPX172 or HMC152 but here in PAL land they don't shoot 24P.

What do people think?

Thanks.
Sam Curtain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2010, 02:19 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 975
Fast action won't expose rolling shutter artifacts but whip pans will and only sometimes when you have verticals with strong edges or high contrast verticals.

Why don't you rent an EX1 for a few days and try it out with scenarios you anticipate in your filming that will bring about rolling shutter issues.

BTW I regularly do whip pans when operating steadicam with my EX3 and I almost never get "zippering" verticals from rolling shutter.
Andrew Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2010, 08:11 PM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,684
My experience is that by the time you see any rolling shutter your into such unusually fast motion that no one will ever notice or care. But test it out. easy enough to shoot cars.
Leonard Levy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18th, 2010, 09:02 PM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 72
I shot a film with an EX1 on a car mount driving 60mph on the highway and didn't have any rolling shutter issues at all. The only time I have ever seen the rolling shutter on an EX1 was watching footage of a helicopter and the rotating blades started to bend from the rolling shutter. However, any action shooting including car chases have never been an issue for me.

However, I will echo everyone else and recommend renting/borrowing one, trying some tests and see. But I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that you'll probably be fine.
Hiram Yates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2010, 02:48 AM   #5
New Boot
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 6
Cool, thanks for the replies guys. Unfortunately it's a bit difficult for me where I live at the moment to get my hands on a rental, but I'll see what happens.

So generally you've all said you don't think it would be a problem. But how do you think it would handle the vibration from a car mount (we''ll be shooting on dirt tracks and offroad).

Does anyone think the HM100 (CCD) and a HD DSLR to be a good option? Or would that just be getting 2 cameras instead of one that is capable?
Sam Curtain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2010, 03:31 AM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cardiff, Wales, UK
Posts: 410
Surely you want the best quality 1920 - 1080 HD pictures without problems. Others have assured you that the rolling shutter is not an issue in the real world. Your other choices have all kinds of issues to contend with. If you have the money EX1/EX1R/EX3 with Nanoflash will beat anything else easily and leave you with a very high quality master.
Bruce Rawlings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2010, 05:58 AM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: melb.vic.au
Posts: 447
Long lens with a hard vehicle mount inducing a lot of vibration can cause some nasty artefacts. The EX sensor scans top to bottom as you see it on screen in about 1/50th of a second in PAL modes. What can happen is one line is read, vibration causes the lens to dip, the next line is read, but the dip causes the sensor to read basically the same image portion coming into the lens. So you get a weird concertina effect.

This has only happened to me once, long lens, bad mount flexing a lot, in a low rider chase car on a freeway at legal speeds. Wide and medium length lenses looked great, even with that bad vibration.

With proper mounts you shouldn't have a problem. Bad ones, you can get the odd issue.
__________________
www.davidwilliams.com.au
David C. Williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2010, 07:09 AM   #8
New Boot
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 6
Thanks Dave.
Has anyone tried the new 2.6 clip browser to "correct" rolling shutter, or is this mainly to fix flashes and stuff?
Sam Curtain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2010, 07:43 AM   #9
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Curtain View Post
Does anyone think the HM100 (CCD) and a HD DSLR to be a good option? Or would that just be getting 2 cameras instead of one that is capable?
I've never used the HM100 but am very interested to see footage from it sometime seeing as how it uses XDCAM codec. Always wondered how it compared... As it's not a CMOS chip it would not have any rolling shutter. However, HDSLRs rolling shutter is awful! Some of the worst I've ever seen come from HDSLRs.

Also, echoing what someone else said, depending on your car mount car vibration can become an issue as longer lens lengths. However, like I said before I had my camera on a suction cup mount (see attached) going 60mph on the highway at a medium lens length and didn't have any vibration issues. I have also used this same mount to film offroading videos with no issues either (although offroad driving is more around 5-10mph).
Attached Images
 
Hiram Yates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2010, 09:42 AM   #10
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Berkshire, UK
Posts: 1,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Curtain View Post
But how do you think it would handle the vibration from a car mount (we''ll be shooting on dirt tracks and offroad)
EX1 filming on vibrating boat

An example of putting a camera on a tripod over a ship's diesel engine. Great for relaxing the muscles of the cameraman, great for inducing seasickness in editor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Curtain View Post
Does anyone think the HM100 (CCD) and a HD DSLR to be a good option? Or would that just be getting 2 cameras instead of one that is capable?
HD DSLRs have their own problems, and no OIS on most lenses.

If your film has anything to do with putting 3d elements into 'real' footage, doing match moves and so on, many will recommend you check out this plug-in:

The Foundry - Overview

But I doubt that would cure vibration ills.
__________________
Director/Editor - MDMA Ltd: Write, Shoot, Edit, Publish - mattdavis.pro
EX1 x2, C100 --> FCPX & PPro6
Matt Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram Yates View Post
...I had my camera on a suction cup mount (see attached) going 60mph on the highway at a medium lens length and didn't have any vibration issues. I have also used this same mount to film offroading videos with no issues either (although offroad driving is more around 5-10mph).
Hi Hiram,

I don't want to sidetrack the thread but I thought this might be helpful to Sam as well - what exactly is the car mount you used called? I have one that I am not at all happy with. It shakes quite a lot even at low speeds and, due to its design, which requires four suction cups to mount to the surface, it does not mount well to surfaces that are not flat - including to the door, which is where I especially wanted to shoot from.

Did yours work ok when mounted on the side of the door? And safety wise - you never had any problems?

Sam,

I assume if you are in Tassie we're too far from each other. But I have an EX1 and a car mount that I'd happily test out with you if you're ever in Victoria.
__________________
John Hewat
Mammoth Media Productions
John Hewat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 19th, 2010, 11:12 PM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 29
Just shot a feature with the EX1 and it looks gorgeous. Also, DSLR's have poor audio recording so you'd be looking a a double-system audio recording challenge...just like the old days of film.
If using Final Cut Pro for editing, check out the things you can do with Motion in the Studio II Bundle. That can smooth out some of the most bouncy footage as if you had the camera mounted on a SteadiCam.
Frank Casanova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #13
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hewat View Post
Hi Hiram,

I don't want to sidetrack the thread but I thought this might be helpful to Sam as well - what exactly is the car mount you used called?
Google: Gripper 3025 Suction Cup and you'll find it. I'd link the website, but they aren't a sponsor...

I have used my suction cup in several places... Mounted to a mirror, to a door (cool shot following the character into a room as the door closed), hood of a car, door of a car (also shutting and makes for great passenger/driver shots through the window), roof of a car, upsidedown on a sunroof while offroading - flip in post and have awesome shots, and many more.

Check out this video:
YouTube - The Rap of The Navigator
I DP'd this music video and here is where you'll see the car door shutting with the suction cup mount attached to the door and then all the driving around scenes are the camera suction cuped to the door shooting through the driver/passenger window. As you'll see there is little to no shake. Since it's a single cup made from rubber it does a pretty good job of absorbing a lot of vibrations. Very sturdy and strong suction, I definitely don't hesitate to have an EX1 mounted to a car driving around, including the door. Like I said before, I was totally convinced of it when we went 60mph with the thing and no issues. We still had a safety chain attached to the handle of the camera for safety, but the suction cup didn't so much as budge. For around $90 it can't be beat!
Hiram Yates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2010, 07:39 AM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 735
Just tracked it down at a U.S. site that charges $90 for it but $130 shipping to Australia.

And I can't find it over here at all. It's a pain in the neck living over here...

What type of mount are you using Sam?
__________________
John Hewat
Mammoth Media Productions
John Hewat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20th, 2010, 08:13 PM   #15
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kyoto, Japan
Posts: 139
Yesterday I visited a camera shop to compare an PMW-EX1R to a JVC GY-HM100 and after recording some passing cars at around 60km/h I have to agree with Leonard's comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
My experience is that by the time you see any rolling shutter your into such unusually fast motion that no one will ever notice or care. But test it out. easy enough to shoot cars.
There was no way I could test for "jello cam" which is a real problem inside cars.

The EX1R is big, heavy and expensive so I personally wouldn't mount it to a modified car that was going really fast but the HM100 would be fine, I used a suction mount and gaffer tape on my CCD Sony DSR-PD170 which is heavier than an HM100 and it stayed on for 20 minutes of very hard driving in the video below.


But for the sake of simplicity, cost, jello cam, color timing and workflow I would go for the HM100 for your project unless you need low light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Curtain View Post
We were also considering the HPX172 or HMC152 but here in PAL land they don't shoot 24P.
The only thing I will say is I would really carefully think about NOT using 24P unless your film is going to end up on actual film. If you want to get it on Australian TV then I would use 720p50 and if you want to sell it overseas I would go 1080p30 or 720p60 as 99% of Australian TVs are multi system anyway.

At 24p pans of any speed were jerky (for me) and with cars you often only get one "take" so unless you are a very experienced operator I wouldn't worry about going for a filmic look until you get to post production.

Probably not a popular opinion, but it is mine, take it or leave it.

Last edited by Laurence Janus; April 20th, 2010 at 08:16 PM. Reason: Vimeo clip added
Laurence Janus is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:19 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network