Clip Browser failing - and not letting me know?!

[Warren Kawamoto]

Originally Posted by Ivan Gomez Villafane

Hello everybody, I just had a major problem with Clip Browser, latest version (2.6).

I tried downloading them twice. Both times had problems in different clips.

We could think it's a problem with my hard drive, but, I copied the files just using windows explorer and there was no problem at all.

Ivan.

The issue here isn't SxS vs cheaper media. When he first used clipbrowser twice, he ended up with corrupted copies. On his next attempt using Explorer, his copied files were fine.

[Doug Jensen]

We've had plenty of people post on here with SxS problems.

Marcus,

Would you mind pointing a few of them out, because I must have missed every one of them. I can't recall a single SxS problem being talked about that wasn't the result of operator error or a hardware problem with the camera itself. Apparently I have missed "plenty" of them. Could you point me to a few of the posts. Thanks.

Doug

[Doug Jensen]

Originally Posted by Warren Kawamoto

The issue here isn't SxS vs cheaper media. When he first used clipbrowser twice, he ended up with corrupted copies. On his next attempt using Explorer, his copied files were fine.

The abiity to use Clip Browser (and FCP Transfer if you are a FCP owner) is critical to the XDCAM workflow. If you use cheaper cards that prevent the normal workflow, you have wasted valuable time, important metadata, and possibly even frames of video or entire clips. That's the issue.

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

Marcus,

Would you mind pointing a few of them out, because I must have missed every one of them. I can't recall a single SxS problem being talked about that wasn't the result of operator error or a hardware problem with the camera itself. Apparently I have missed "plenty" of them. Could you point me to a few of the posts. Thanks.

Doug

Doug,

I'm sure you can figure out how to use the forum search feature but such a search quickly showed a few examples including one chap who had his SxS pack up 40 minutes into a card. The guy got his card replaced but it was scant compensation. Things can and do go wrong. I do know someone who spent some considerable time helping a colleague recover a corrupted clip from an SxS card.

We know your position on SDHC. That's fair enough, but shouting loudest isn't justification in itself. SDHC is a minefield and frankly some people shouldn't be using it because they don't understand what they are doing, but for those who can get the workflow sussed there's many benefits to be had including the ability to retain stock as if it were tape.

Sony recognise SDHC as a solution now and the firmware has been updated. We know which cards are to be trusted and which to avoid. It is a minefield if you don't know what you are doing.

And going back to the OP, I doubt SDHC had anything to do with it frankly. Just a bad transfer or some kind of glitch.

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by Warren Kawamoto

The issue here isn't SxS vs cheaper media. When he first used clipbrowser twice, he ended up with corrupted copies. On his next attempt using Explorer, his copied files were fine.

Does anyone know what the nature of the CRC checking is in Clip Browser? Windows and OSX will CRC check as a matter of course while copying files. I'm sure many of us have seen "a CRC error" on a hard disk that is failing. So what is Clip Browser doing that the OS doesn't do? From where I'm standing it's the job of the operating system to make sure that files copy correctly.

After all, how many times have you copied a file from one hard disk to another and found that it corrupted on the way across? In short, not in 25 years of being a computer user. Even my Sinclair Spectrum CRC checks data when loading from tape!

So what gives? Is this CRC check giving people false confidence? Is it checking what the OS would check anyway?

[Steve Gibbons]

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen

It does not guarantee that the original was any good in the first place. How could the CRC know that unless it took the time to actually attempt to playback every single frame on the card? Do you really want to wait 60 minutes to copy a 16GB card?

If you've got bad clips on the card, CRC will make sure that those problems gets copied perfectly over to the hard drive.

The files were reportedly recorded fine to the card and were not corrupt. This is confirmed by the fact that when he uses Windows Explorer to copy them, there are no playback problems.

This comes back to the original question of why the files are corrupting when using Clip Browser to transfer them - and even more troublesome is that the transfer is occurring with the CRC check in place.

So the logic is completely upside down in Ivan's report: the supposed "least safe way" to transfer - Windows Explorer - is actually proving to be the most reliable. While the supposed "most safe way" - Sony Clip Browser with CRC check - is failing.

[Dave Morrison]

I'm still unclear as to whether all the clips would play in the camera or not. His description was a bit confusing as to what would play and when. If they will all play okay in the camera, then the problem is downstream from there. However, that "Class 2" speed issue is still hanging out there too.

[Marcus Durham]

Don't the Sandisk cards say something like "Ultra 2" but then have the actual class rating in small writing? That might be causing confusion.

[Ivan Gomez Villafane]

I'm sorry this thread has turned into another SxS vs. SDHC discussion - it was really not my intention, as you can see in my original post, my story ends with me asking if there is another program I could use instead Clip Browser.

Just for the record, I have been happily using 2 Class 4 and 1 Class 2 16GB Sandisk Ultra II cards with an e-films adaptor for a long time. I never had any problems except once I lost a little bit of a 48fps overcranked clip. I filled all three cards with 48fps footage and one clip failed, but I was able to recover almost all of it. I've been thinking of getting SXS-1 some day, but not now. Still too expensive for my taste, I don't shoot much paid stuff, I always state the 1% possibility of failure, and so on. I just bought 64GB in SDHC cards for 200 instead of 1200.

As some of you figured out already, my clips are fine. The problem was with Clip Browser. I'm sorry if this wasn't clear in my original post, it was never stated, but I thought it could be deducted. I promise for the sake of your curiosity I will run some tests, like, downloading the clips to another hard drive or downloading from the camera instead of using the card reader. This should help us narrow down the problem and see what we should watch out for in the future.

So windows explorer has a good built-in check? For copying and moving files.

I'm on a difficult position here, really. I even started using Clip Browser some time ago "to play it safe" - before I just copy-pasted with explorer - but imagine the consequences of checking a correctly copied clip, assuming everything is ok, and not editing the footage until some weeks later. I shoot quite often, so, there will be no chance to re-downloading anything...

*sigh*

[Anthony McErlean]

Originally Posted by Ivan Gomez Villafane

... but imagine the consequences of checking a correctly copied clip, assuming everything is ok, and not editing the footage until some weeks later. I shoot quite often, so, there will be no chance to re-downloading anything...

Thats the bit I worry about too.
I make a folder on my external HDD and then sub folders for each of my sxs cards. I copy my SxS cards to the external HDD with C.Browser. Once all cards are copied I then copy and paste that folder from (with all the sub folders) the external HD to one on my PCs Hard drives.

I switch off the PC and the external HD. Start the PC again, bring the clips into the Edius timeline from my PC internal HD via CB.
I would look through the clips on the timeline making sure everything was there that I recorded.

Then I copy and paste that folder to another internal HD making 3 copies off that project saved to HDrives.

[Ivan Gomez Villafane]

Allright guys, apparently the problem's my hard drive. Copying them to my other hard drive gives me no problems at all.

So I guess Clip Browser doesn't really verify the data in a "100% satisfaction" way. It would be nice to have a program that automatically checks the copied files not by just looking at numbers with a CRC, but actually somehow playing bits of it, frames for example, to check if there is any wrong or anomalous.

I HATE failing drives. Oh well, I guess I'll have to buy another one... again.

Moral of the story, Beevare of the big fat hard drive that lives beneath your case... he eats little boys, puppy dog tails, and, big, fat clips.

Having more than just one copy seems very reasonable - if not absolutely necessary. I would say checking the clips is very necessary as well, but the problem is still efficiency on this last subject. I just made a test and Premiere warns me about these bad clips when trying to conform them though, that's good for efficiency.

Thanks for sharing your workflow Anthony, it seems pretty flawless... I would like to ask if you don't mind, why the switch off and on step?

Thanks,

Iván.

[Warren Kawamoto]

Originally Posted by Anthony McErlean

Then I copy and paste that folder to another internal HD making 3 copies off that project saved to HDrives.

Do you copy and paste using CB or Windows? I always use CB for everything that deals with footage. When I first got my EX1 I copied and pasted folders using Windows. Everything was fine for about a month. Then one day as I was editing, I noticed a dropout in my footage. It wasn't recoverable because I had already erased my SxS card. Since then, I've always used CB for transferring all files, every time. No problems since...that was about 3 years ago.

[Anthony McErlean]

Originally Posted by Warren Kawamoto

Do you copy and paste using CB or Windows? I always use CB for everything that deals with footage. When I first got my EX1 I copied and pasted folders using Windows. Everything was fine for about a month. Then one day as I was editing, I noticed a dropout in my footage. It wasn't recoverable because I had already erased my SxS card. Since then, I've always used CB for transferring all files, every time. No problems since...that was about 3 years ago.

After using CB to copy my sxs cards to the external HD I just copy and paste (windows) the folder after that.

Perhaps I should use CB for everything.

Thanks.

[Ed Przyzycki]

Iván, could you check one clip in question to see if the file size (in bytes) of the file that you copied to your destination hard drive exactly matches the file size from your original media? I would suspect that Clip Browser doesn't report any copy errors if the file sizes are the same.

Another test would be to copy the problematic file to another physical drive - to confirm it's not some sort of performance issue with one specific drive. (Maybe the actual clip itself is fine - but the specific drive speed/bandwith is the issue- especially if it's failing)

Maybe it's possible that the original copy was in fact "ok", but some other corruption to the file occured after the transfer?

There wouldn't be anything else suddenly interfering with playback from the drive (virus checker, updated playback software, hard-drive setting change, etc)? You never know when some OS automatically updates some driver or something. (I keep mine disabled)

[Anthony McErlean]

Originally Posted by Ivan Gomez Villafane

... I would like to ask if you don't mind, why the switch off and on step?

Thanks,

Iván.

Well when I switch off my external HD Edius only reads from the copied files on my internal PC HD and if it reads them OK it proves to me that my original copy to my external HD was good. Well thats what I think anyway.