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Old September 3rd, 2010, 02:03 PM   #46
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Matt, I was at the Canon Expo in NYC so seeing things there makes all this topical again. People got to have some real hands on under some interesting situations.

That had a fake CSI lab set with a variety of Canon cameras setup. The "director" would explain what was about to happen and we would follow (or attempt to) with the cameras we happened to chose to experiment. They ran through a variety of situations from two and three person conversations to close ups of investigative lab work to shots in which people would walk across the set. I got a very strong sense of the limitations using a 5D Mark II (not that I didn't know them already). It basically confirmed by desire for a video camera. Now if someone can come up with a "one man (person)" follow focus . . .

Impressive looking was the 2 camera X105 in RedRock prototype 3D rig. Horrible 3D though as it wasn't properly calibrated.

Impressive was the concept camera (concept, not prototype) which was a 2/3" chip 4K resolution fixed lens camera about the size of an EX1. Many people thought it looked like a hair dryer. Certainly the side vent to air cool the chips may have been a factor. Supposedly capable of more that 60fps (and remember this is 4K) although I couldn't test this.

Impressive was MXF MPEG2 4:2:2 FCP Log and Transfer NATIVE import of files from the XF cameras. No transcode to ProRes and NO REWRAP to .mov.
____
So basically I see current HDSLR for product shots, talking heads (with second sound) and anything more you're looking at more gear and crew.

Give the above I can see a video HDSLR equivalent having amongst other features:
Live LCD monitor built in with attention paid to the ability to focus (think peaking while subject moves so you can track by hand), XLR audio in, MXF MPEG2 4:2:2 with native support (well FCP needs this), proper scanning of the CMOS sensor (no low rez or aliasing), 90fps or 120fps at 1080p.

The other variant might involved 2/3" and 4K but that's really an odd combination though.

While I don't expect any surprises at IBC, given Sony's VG10, Panasonic's AF100, pieces of technology Canon has happening, I think we're approaching the next revolution. NAB should be very interesting next year.

All three of the above are in the DSLR market to some extent so the convergence is nigh upon us.

I can understand the tempting to enter into DSLR given the low point of entry. I think a key consideration may be the compatibility between lenses and whatever higher end large chip video camera you may want to purchase next year.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 02:21 PM   #47
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Yeah the buy glass philosophy sounded very nice to me, but I learnt different manufacturers have different mounts and that is not nice at all. You can use adaptors, but say goodbye to easy aperture control and the extra bucks you spent on IS... unless of course you have ultra expensive lenses and you can keep aperture, which probably won't be the case if you are buying an entry level T2i...

A moderator at the other forum's AF100 thread said that based on his experience we shouldn't be expecting a big chip video camera from Canon anytime soon, so if you just bought a T2i with the 1 grand Canon 17-55 2.8 IS, good luck with upgrading the body I guess... what are you going to get anytime soon... the 60D?

This fact is one of the things that pushed me back from selling the EX1... I'm very happy with my T2i Kit + 50mm 1.4 + 55-250mm and I will keep it that way for now, watching closely what happens in the market. I'll probably get some extra shots with the 50mm 1.4 and see what happens in post, but I'm convinced to keep using the EX1 as my main cam even if I do a lot of narrative stuff.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 03:00 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ivan Gomez Villafane View Post
Yeah the buy glass philosophy sounded very nice to me, but I learnt different manufacturers have different mounts and that is not nice at all.
They've had different mounts since camera lenses have been manufactured. This is nothing new, nor is it a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Gomez Villafane View Post
You can use adaptors, but say goodbye to easy aperture control and the extra bucks you spent on IS...
Solution: Easy aperture control? Turn dial to selected aperture, press record. How much easier does it need to be? What the heck is the big deal with IS? Especially with how much it adds to cost. Maybe if I was running around hand held all day, or shooting out the side of a jeep. But for basic narrative work, it's of very little benefit from what I can see.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Gomez Villafane View Post
unless of course you have ultra expensive lenses and you can keep aperture, which probably won't be the case if you are buying an entry level T2i...
Manal lens, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Gomez Villafane View Post
A moderator at the other forum's AF100 thread said that based on his experience we shouldn't be expecting a big chip video camera from Canon anytime soon, so if you just bought a T2i with the 1 grand Canon 17-55 2.8 IS, good luck with upgrading the body I guess... what are you going to get anytime soon... the 60D?
Upgrade the body for what?


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Originally Posted by Ivan Gomez Villafane View Post
This fact is one of the things that pushed me back from selling the EX1... I'm very happy with my T2i Kit + 50mm 1.4 + 55-250mm and I will keep it that way for now, watching closely what happens in the market. I'll probably get some extra shots with the 50mm 1.4 and see what happens in post, but I'm convinced to keep using the EX1 as my main cam even if I do a lot of narrative stuff.
Interesting. I am about to move my EX1 to B-Camera status next week as the T2i takes over A-Cam. I'll use the EX1 when:

1. I absolutely cannot record sync sound
2. I absolutely cannot get fast enough glass
3. Someone wants to see an "expensive looking camera" on set.
4. I need continuous recording.

Barring those things, I'll be happy to leave it at home, as much as I like it and the images it makes.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 03:35 PM   #49
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The products and the manufacturers are becoming even more differentiated than before. The camera you use for run and gun is not necessarily the camera you use for narrative. That's only things as they are though not necessarily how things will be in a year or so.

Ivan, I'm not sure what experience determines that Canon won't come out with a large chip video camera. In fact what a "video camera" is itself changing. Imagine if Canon improved the line skipping down conversion and added live built in LCD monitoring with peaking for focus while tracking a shot. Add MPEG2 4:2:2 codec, allowed for longer record times and for many that would be most of what they're looking for. It may not be much of a change in ergonomics though and they may feel audio is better left to second sound. You can see how much more "video" friendly their DSLRs have gotten with firmware updates.

Sony is already showing it's directions with the VG10 but it's clearly "consumer"

Panasonic is with the AF100 but seems to be more "lower end professional"

Canon's concept camera shows they too are certainly thinking of something else. 2/3 chip, 4K and that was "hybrid" form factor. Basically Canon may have two divergent classes of video cameras. Large sensor for narrative and small for run and gun. In talking to the reps in that "booth" they emphasized they're thinking hybrid in the concept they're displaying.

Panasonic is showing one direction for 3D in a single camera whereas Canon shows two XF105s.

Canon brings out MPEG-2 4:2:2 at a price point much lower than Sony EX but only fixed lens and no shoulder mount. They also come out with a model the size of JVC HM100.

The movement the companies are making are not synchronous at all. You'd really need a matrix to show what they have in common and what are the radical differences in design and product development strategy.

What I can say is all three (Sony, Canon, Panasonic) will have large chip cameras that shoot video. Canon will CERTAINLY make improvements even if they keep the DSLR ergonomics. You can see they're already doing that. A good portion of the EXPO was DSLR as video camera.

The problem is if one invests heavily in Canon glass by you see the Sony you love next year you will have a bit of a quandary. Sony will likely be "run and gun" and then the lens control will be an issue. It's not as much for narrative which is Perrone's point.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 04:02 PM   #50
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I'm not giving up hope yet.

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Originally Posted by Craig Seeman View Post
Give the above I can see a video HDSLR equivalent having amongst other features:
Live LCD monitor built in with attention paid to the ability to focus (think peaking while subject moves so you can track by hand), XLR audio in, MXF MPEG2 4:2:2 with native support (well FCP needs this), proper scanning of the CMOS sensor (no low rez or aliasing), 90fps or 120fps at 1080p.
You betcha. AF100, Epic, Scarlet, rumoured Sony offerings beyond the 60i attempt, all advertising compatibility with Canon & Nikon lenses, hovering around the APS-C to Four-Thirds for sensor size, all of which are 'kinda' 35mm cine (sorta wriggling around 20x13mm) in a way that 2/3" and smaller is NOT.

Just happen to be shooting with the 550D tomorrow using a set of Nikon primes, some of which may have been born before me. My Nikon D200 is gathering dust, but my Nikkor G lenses will be used tomorrow too - albeit with the 17-55 2.8 wearing an expensive adaptor (was cheaper than buying a replacement Canon lens).

Yes, of course the EX1s will do most of the heavy lifting. But my EX1 backpack now includes the 550D with the Tokina 11-17, which is - to all intents and purposes - my 'wide angle adaptor'. Don't want to rely on it as a main camera yet, but will buy glass for it (and by inference, whatever comes after it).

So Canon's hair dryer has caused its reaction, the XF100 is really cute and the no-brainer for a 305 based B-roll. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop on Canon's response to Panasonic's opening salvo. Trouble is, Canon's a sort of tortoise company. The XL2 is still a steady seller, the XM2 is a mini-legend - why should they rock the boat?

Just so long as Canon - and the other non-lens-making camera manufacturers - make sure we can use their glass.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 04:11 PM   #51
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Just happen to be shooting with the 550D tomorrow using a set of Nikon primes, some of which may have been born before me. My Nikon D200 is gathering dust, but my Nikkor G lenses will be used tomorrow too - albeit with the 17-55 2.8 wearing an expensive adaptor (was cheaper than buying a replacement Canon lens).
How are you using Nikkor G lenses? They don't have an aperture ring on them, correct?

My days of buying Canon glass are long over. I'll buy Nikon glass, Pentax glass, Fuji, Yashica, Mamiya, Leica, Zeiss... but no more Canon for me.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 04:27 PM   #52
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Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha! Top secret Nikon G lens adaptor:

Nikon G - Canon EOS Adapter

works a treat. If you like manual lenses and wide apertures.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:04 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Perrone Ford View Post
My days of buying Canon glass are long over. I'll buy Nikon glass, Pentax glass, Fuji, Yashica, Mamiya, Leica, Zeiss... but no more Canon for me.
Perrone, do the rest of us a favor and please leave the Pentax M & A series lenses alone!

Thank you.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:09 PM   #54
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Perrone, do the rest of us a favor and please leave the Pentax M & A series lenses alone!

Thank you.
No worries, I'm not interested in any of them. Super Taks, S-M-C's, and SMCs for me, thanks.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:10 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Matt Daviss View Post
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha! Top secret Nikon G lens adaptor:

Nikon G - Canon EOS Adapter

works a treat. If you like manual lenses and wide apertures.
Ah yes, I have seen those. That's a no-go for me. I keep an adapter on each lens. I'd go broke fooling with those!
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:11 PM   #56
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No worries, I'm not interested in any of them. Super Taks, S-M-C's, and SMCs for me, thanks.
LOL! The M's and A's are SMC K-mounts.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:19 PM   #57
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LOL! The M's and A's are SMC K-mounts.
Yes, I know. I've been going over these things for weeks now. M42 solves a lot of problems for me so that's where I am going. Actually just got my first ever M42 lens today. A Fujinon 55mm F1.8.
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:29 PM   #58
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Good! the less competition i have for an 85/1.4 when I find it, the better! :) (or the 35/1.4 yeah, right!)
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Old September 3rd, 2010, 05:37 PM   #59
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Good! the less competition i have for an 85/1.4 when I find it, the better! :)
I have a personal limit of $250 for glass. So you need not worry.

I didn't want to buy more than 2 types of adapters because they get just too hard to manage. So I chose F-Mount and M42. So all my glass will fit into those types.

I've got a full set of Nikon to put together from 20-200, and I'll be doing a full set of Pentax as well. Then some fun odds and ends.

The great advantage of the Nikons is how similar they look. So lensing a movie lets me move from lens to lens without having to do much in the way of matching colors shot to shot. This isn't so true with other glass as I've found. So the Nikon set will be my primary movie makers, I'll have the Taks for general stuff, and then some specials like the Helios or others when I am looking for things like flare, or other specialties. The thing about some of the Pentax lenses is the Bokeh and color richness is absolutely STUNNING. I knew I had to get some when I saw the samples. It's unfortunate so much of the glass is slow. I am trying to put together a set of F1.8-F2.0 glass, and if money permits, a faster set if possible. There's a LOT of F2.5, F2.8, and F3.5 glass in the Pentax lineup. And it's hard for me to justify that glass when I can stay on the zoom for F2.8 and not worry about matching shots later in post.
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Old September 4th, 2010, 02:06 AM   #60
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Solution: Easy aperture control? Turn dial to selected aperture, press record. How much easier does it need to be? What the heck is the big deal with IS? Especially with how much it adds to cost. Maybe if I was running around hand held all day, or shooting out the side of a jeep. But for basic narrative work, it's of very little benefit from what I can see.
...
Manal lens, problem solved.
...
Upgrade the body for what?
1. That is obviously with fully compatible or old/expensive lenses, but with the new lines I believe it's not the case... you won't be able to control aperture on a EF 50mm 1.4 mounted on a Panasonic with an adaptor, you would have to stick to one aperture or have your T2i nearby to change it. Or am I wrong?

2. Upgrade the body for what? Well I guess it's pretty obvious! We've been on the other thread remember, "normal noise & banding for T2i"? That defects can be worked around but it will be nice in the future not to have to do so... moire would also be a nice fix. A little upgrade in resolution as well and the pro video stuff as zebras, histograms, peaking, magnifier while recording, good monitoring output, no time limit, no overheat etc etc... but if we won't be seeing that anytime soon, I don't feel very confortable spending a lot of money on DSLR stuff, specially on specific for-Canon lenses.

On the other hand, you seem to have in your hands a lot of vintage manual lenses and knowledge about them, right? In your case I guess it makes sense not to be concerned too much because you will just jump around with adaptors. Maybe the only sense right now is to grab vintage lenses instead of spending 1,100 dollars on a sensor and mount specific lens as the 17-55 for example. I don't know, I'm just throwing out my thoughts. What do you think?
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