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-   -   PMW-EX* Successor? (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-pro-handhelds/493661-pmw-ex-successor.html)

Adam Palomer March 27th, 2011 12:13 AM

PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Given the time proximity to NAB, I would normally refrain from speculating. But, out of curiosity I was wondering if anyone foresees Sony consolidating their PMW-EX1R and EX-3 into one camera with an interchangeable lens system with in-camera 4:2:2 recording?

This, of course, given the fact that the FS100 seems to be aimed at the lower end of the cinematographic scale while the PMW-F3 seems to be aimed at the upper end of the scale.

Robert Young March 27th, 2011 01:09 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
I think that the EX 1&3 are such terrific all around cameras that they will likely be around for quite a while.
You can shoot ENG full auto like it's a Handicam, you can use a 35mm adaptor, matte box, & follow focus and shoot a feature film. It's a piece of work indeed!
I can't imagine what Sony will do in the way of future upgrades to the line, but I'm skeptical that the FS100 can knock the EX out of the marketplace. It seems to be a different sort of animal with more limited applications.
Maybe Sony has been so busy with all of the new releases that we won't see EX changes this year, but who knows.

Bo Skelmose March 27th, 2011 02:16 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Sony could release a firmware update to EX1-3 and PMW-EX320 - 350 so they will record 50 mbs. That will bring the cameraes back in compettiting with Canon.

Barry J. Anwender March 27th, 2011 08:01 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
You may have noticed that the price dropped $3k US on the PMW-500, Sony's 4:2:2 50Mb camera with SxS storage. Thus, it is doubtful that we are going to see anything else. Convergent Design confirmed two years ago that 50Mb/s on the EX-1/r and EX-3 are not possible because of the hardware design and codex chip used. Then there is the whole debate that the EX1/3 line video is two noisy to obtain any significant benefits from 50Mb/s. Hence the reason why Sony choose to go with 2/3" sensors on its PMW-500. But who knows, the market is heating up, especially now that the Convergent Gemini is on the horizon. Cheers!

Dave Sperling March 27th, 2011 10:01 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
In terms of sensors and image, the PMW-500 is really more like the 800 or 700 series cameras, with CCD rather than CMOS sensors and their inherently higher power requirements -- it just records to SxS cards instead of to disc. Also remember that when recording to 50 Mbit 4:2:2 it uses a different file structure (UDF) on the SxS card than when recording 35 Mbit 4:2:0 (FAT).

David Heath March 27th, 2011 04:07 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry J. Anwender (Post 1632163)
Convergent Design confirmed two years ago that 50Mb/s on the EX-1/r and EX-3 are not possible because of the hardware design and codex chip used.

If it's possible to put the 50Mbs codec into the new Canons - the XF100 series, let alone the XF300s - I don't see why it is not possible to put it on an upgraded EX.
Quote:

Then there is the whole debate that the EX1/3 line video is two noisy to obtain any significant benefits from 50Mb/s.
I think the debate you're thinking of centres around the potential benefits of 10 bit v 8 bit acquisition, and there is indeed a big question mark over whether 10 bit working brings any real benefit except to very high end (and noise free) cameras. But the 50Mbs codec is still 8 bit, and the advantages are more down to colour space and lower overall compression, and an improvement is noticeable when a nanoFlash is used.

I don't know whether Sony will implement an EX with a 50Mbs mode, I certainly think they should, but I suspect the answer will be "no".

Jim Snow March 27th, 2011 04:15 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
I suspect we may be on the cusp of a paradigm shift toward larger sensors. If that is true, cameras such as the EX1/EX3 may be the last of the breed. We may be seeing clues of this with some of the newer models such as the Sony NEXFS100U. I bought an EX1R a year ago ago. If I were making the decision now, I would look carefully at the NEXFS100U

Marcus Durham March 27th, 2011 04:49 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Snow (Post 1632346)
I bought an EX1R a year ago ago. If I were making the decision now, I would look carefully at the NEXFS100U

As a VG10 owner (the junior version of that camera) my opinion is that such cameras compliment the EX1, they don't replace it.

Select your own lens? Nice! The ability to take a 11mm lens with me on shoots that gives lovely wide shots while the EX1 does the donkey work is great.

But no power zoom? Aliasing? A shallow depth of field that makes run and gun next to impossible? It's hard work compared to an EX1 which just, well, works really.

These cameras are aimed at "film makers" who are prepared to sacrifice features for shallow DoF and the creativity of different lenses. Certainly the VG10 is a difficult and slow beast to shoot with. The results can be very rewarding but it can be a struggle getting there. If you have lots of time it isn't a problem but on shoots where time is at a premium it can be a challenge.

Cameras that can use DSLR lenses are extremely interesting but the technology is far from mature and they aren't really suited to the same kind of applications an EX1 is.

And of course if Sony haven't fixed the aliaising issues on this new camera it's not going to be able to justify its price tag.

Jim Snow March 27th, 2011 08:54 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Marcus, I agree with your assessment from the perspective of an overview of the current crop of cameras but I believe 'trump' has been changed and we will continue to see larger sensor video cameras ascend to the forefront. I agree that these cameras need the accouterments of VIDEO cameras. It is a pain to be constrained by the photo-centric limitations of some of the early renderings but I believe market forces and competition will propel a maturation of the coming crop of full-featured VIDEO cameras.

Alister Chapman March 27th, 2011 09:31 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
I think were forgetting that the laws of physics have a part to play here. Most broadcast lenses are f1.8, fast lenses. They are also 14x or greater zooms and they are parfocal, that means the focus does not change throughout the zoom range. With a larger sensor, you need larger glass elements to achieve the same f-stop. Large lens elements are expensive to make, especially if you want low chromatic aberration. A f1.8 (or even f2.8) parfocal 14x zoom lens for super 35mm will be very big, very heavy and extremely expensive. While large sensor cameras may be getting more sensitive, when it comes to low light performance the lens is crucial. For that reason alone for many applications large sensor cameras are not going to replace 2/3" and 1/2" cameras as general purpose, all round cameras any time soon.

Yes we will probably see a dramatic increase in the use of large sensor camcorders in some genres such as documentary, corporate and drama. But for sports, news and event television the 2/3" sensor and 1/2" sensor will remain the sweet spot for many years to come.

I think there will be many people that will rush out to buy one of the new super35 camcorders only to be frustrated by having to change lenses for different shots or not having servo zooms or parfocal lenses. Eventually they will get fed up with all the extra hassle, especially if shooting on a tight schedule or on the run and end up going back to a more conventional camcorder.

I love my PMW-F3, but I'm definitely not ready to give up my EX1 yet.

I doubt we will see a new EX at NAB. I suspect the engineers have been busy on the F3. Maybe next year, but I doubt it will ever be 50Mb/s.

Tim Polster March 27th, 2011 09:43 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
The more I learn about this stuff the more it comes down to what type of shooting you do. If you are shooting staged drama then you need an different camera that if you are shooting live sports. Sure there can be overlap but this is at the heart of new camera model design.

In this economic situation I would be surprised at very many refreshes of exisiting cameras. Quite frankly a lot of people are just making do with what they have. Take the 5DMKII. If I was Canon I would see no economic reason to update it yet. It is still a leader in its class. Same goes for the EX-1. We all want improvements but that does not make them econimically viable for the companies that make the cameras.

Alister raises great point about the the shear cost and physics regarding lenses. 2/3" is about the limit of sensor size for "video" style cameras. Anything larger and I do not think you can classify it as a video camera. It becomes more of a film type camera.

Jim Snow March 27th, 2011 11:05 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Thanks for the explanation Alister. Would the cost/ size issue be helped if the "kit" lens on a large sensor camera was a maximum aperture of f4 for example? Since the lens is removable, faster lenses could be used as needed. I know there is a difference between an engineering challenge and a miracle worker but there is a big reward to those who can make headway on this issue.

Bo Skelmose March 28th, 2011 01:48 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Hi
Always heard that it was the the same chip that Sony and Convergent Design used. Sad to hear that the EX1-3 will not be upgraded to 50 mbs. Hope still for PMW-EX350 ?
Regarding the sensor size - what would the problem be making a large sensor with a readout of the 2/3" part for broadcast and the hole chip for filmmaking?
I have orderd a Canon 600D and as far as I can read, it can digitally zoom up to 10x without loss of quality. I am aware that using a smaller part of the lens reduses resolution a bit but if you change your lens for whatever job you need to do ?

David C. Williams March 28th, 2011 02:03 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
There is a S35 lens that is fairly close to the aperture and and field of view of the EX lens. It's only 11kg and totally manual.

Down the bottom, 24-290. Optimo PL mount zoom lenses

On the more practical side, Tamron have a few light weight zooms. Aperture ramps hugely, 3.5-6.3, and I doubt it holds focus zooming, probably varifocal.

Tamron -All-in-One Zoom Lenses (Di II Lenses)

So those are about your physical limits lens wise. Some where in the middle would be useable hand held. Sony have a few planned which look good.

Sony PMW-F3 Zooms and Updates Film and Digital Times: News

Doug Jensen March 28th, 2011 04:45 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Skelmose (Post 1632496)
digitally zoom up to 10x without loss of quality.

That is impossible.

Mike Marriage March 28th, 2011 05:12 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1632515)
That is impossible.

With some of the horrible line-skipping going on in DSLRs you may even find there is even an increase in quality by cropping in on the sensor. That is of course presuming the lens isn't a limiting factor. Has anyone tested it?

As sensor tech improves, maybe the solution to "one size fits all" camera will be a large, hi res sensor that gets cropped when small, fast zooms are required. I know Red already has a similar trick but it isn't without its compromises...yet.

Vincent Oliver March 28th, 2011 05:15 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Skelmose (Post 1632496)
Hi
Sad to hear that the EX1-3 will not be upgraded to 50 mbs. Hope still for PMW-EX350 ?

I have 50mbs per second on my Canon F305 which I use as a B camera to a EX3 system - I can't see any real quality difference between the two cameras. There are plenty of "old school" masters in this industry who will not accept that technology has moved on, and you can get away with almost anything - as long as you know how to use the tools.

Piotr Wozniacki March 28th, 2011 06:13 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David C. Williams (Post 1632497)

On an OT note - why does the author of the linked article say the F3 is an APS-C format camera? Am I missing something here?

Piotr

Dave Sperling March 28th, 2011 06:50 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Hi Piotr,
I believe the usable width of the F3 is about 6% narrower than the width of APS-C (23.6mm vs 25.1mm) - hence the F3 should work fine with lenses that cover the APS-C frame.

Piotr Wozniacki March 28th, 2011 06:59 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Thanks Dave, but I still think it's a bit misleading to call it APS-C - in the case of actual implementation of this format (like in the NEX-VG10), you have a lot more megapixels - great for stills, but making the sensor much less sensitive and noisier in the 1920x1080 output.

Super 35mm is what best describes the F3 sensor; no compromise between still photography and film here.

Piotr

Dave Sperling March 28th, 2011 07:55 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Piotr,
Yes, I agree that calling it APS-C is misleading, not only because APS-C is theoretically a 3:2 ratio chip, but also because it seems that just about every still camera manufacturer that makes an APS-C camera uses slightly different dimensions...
I still, however, like the idea that it provides a reference as to which still lenses will cover the F3 Super35 chip.

Matt Davis March 28th, 2011 02:31 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
I'm a bit concerned about the 'APS-C' moniker, as there's a Nikon variety and a Canon variety. The former is a little larger, so Nikkor APS-C lenses may work with F3 where Canon APS-C lenses may have a touch of vignetting. This is only armchair theory, not practical tests. Not sure if to sell the Canon or the Nikkor 17-55 f2.8 at the moment. (joking)

I'm very happy with my DSLR kit, but my EX1-Rs are still the go-to cameras in my niche. Was really happy for the 1/2" DoF in today's shoot. FS100 would have been a real handful (single camera must cover 6 people in conversation, shoot 20 mins, plus 5 mins retakes and some cutaway reaction shots to paper over the inevitable cracks in a 10 minute edit).

As Marcus says, great to replace a DSLR with the FS100 if you currently use a DSLR as a wide or B-Roll camera.

What would I want out of an EX1-S? Less noise, 50 Mbits, better mic pre-amps, 1080p50/60. An EX3-S? Ditto, maybe at 2/3rd inch. ;-)

Don Parrish March 28th, 2011 03:42 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Does the EX1 and EX3's 500 dollar rebate that ends on the 31st indicate anything ?? I think we all tend to associate rebates with clearing the shelves don't we ?? And remember, Canon has dropped the XLH line and introduced the XF line, the ball is in Sony's court. Listening to the EX3 owners the camera could use an update in the form of cheaper memory, better switches and an upgrade to the baseplate.

Les Wilson March 28th, 2011 06:22 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Who knows...Sometimes rebates are done to boost sales... in this case, it changes the EX vs XF economics quite a bit. I think Canon will forever hold the "long in the tooth" record with it keeping the GL-2 on the market for the whole lifespan of HDV. lol

I think I'm with Alistair on this one: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...ml#post1617448

Alan McInnes March 28th, 2011 10:59 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1632444)
I think were forgetting that the laws of physics have a part to play here. Most broadcast lenses are f1.8, fast lenses. They are also 14x or greater zooms and they are parfocal, that means the focus does not change throughout the zoom range. With a larger sensor, you need larger glass elements to achieve the same f-stop. Large lens elements are expensive to make, especially if you want low chromatic aberration. A f1.8 (or even f2.8) parfocal 14x zoom lens for super 35mm will be very big, very heavy and extremely expensive. While large sensor cameras may be getting more sensitive, when it comes to low light performance the lens is crucial. For that reason alone for many applications large sensor cameras are not going to replace 2/3" and 1/2" cameras as general purpose, all round cameras any time soon.

Yes we will probably see a dramatic increase in the use of large sensor camcorders in some genres such as documentary, corporate and drama. But for sports, news and event television the 2/3" sensor and 1/2" sensor will remain the sweet spot for many years to come.

I think there will be many people that will rush out to buy one of the new super35 camcorders only to be frustrated by having to change lenses for different shots or not having servo zooms or parfocal lenses. Eventually they will get fed up with all the extra hassle, especially if shooting on a tight schedule or on the run and end up going back to a more conventional camcorder.

I love my PMW-F3, but I'm definitely not ready to give up my EX1 yet.

I doubt we will see a new EX at NAB. I suspect the engineers have been busy on the F3. Maybe next year, but I doubt it will ever be 50Mb/s.

I wasn't aware of this issue and can appreciate how lens costs can become the driving force when lenses can cost almost as much as the camera. The Fujinon lens I would like for my EX3 is more than I paid for the EX3! I love my EX3, but would love to have the shallow DOF on many an occasion. I just can't get what I want, even with the fast 1.9 f lens that comes with the EX3. I would love to get the F3, but I can't imagine what the package would cost with the proposed 10x zoom lens. As it is, we may be the only school of our size with an EX3.

Andrew Stone March 28th, 2011 11:25 PM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Alan,

The F3 has a native or equivalent ISO rating of 800 while the EX series cams are around 320 (depending on your framerate and gamma setting).

You can operate an F3 with a stills zoom lens using a Nikon lens mount adapter and get some mighty fine lenses for anywhere between $300 and $2000. When you get into the Cine lenses that is when the pricing gets stratospheric.

You might want to consider the NEX FS-100 which is based in part on the Sony F3 but has a price point that you may find acceptable. Poke around DVinfo, there is a lot of info on the F3 including talk about lenses and there is emerging info on the FS-100 that I just mentioned.

Andrew Bower March 29th, 2011 04:45 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Parrish (Post 1632696)
Does the EX1 and EX3's 500 dollar rebate that ends on the 31st indicate anything ?? I think we all tend to associate rebates with clearing the shelves don't we ?? And remember, Canon has dropped the XLH line and introduced the XF line, the ball is in Sony's court. Listening to the EX3 owners the camera could use an update in the form of cheaper memory, better switches and an upgrade to the baseplate.

I'd also like to see the same 'r' upgrades done to the EX3 as the EX1r has. In particular the record buffer (or whatever it is called on the EX1r).

Brian Drysdale March 29th, 2011 09:40 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Sony have no need to rush out a new camera, perhaps a minor upgrade at most. They've got an extremely successful product that can be easily upgraded to broadcast HD using a Nanoflash. More likely they'll be going after the Canon XF305, they sold a lot of Z1s to the broadcasters.

Doug Jensen March 29th, 2011 10:03 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Wilson (Post 1632744)
Who knows...Sometimes rebates are done to boost sales

True. The fiscal year for most Japanese companies, including Sony, ends on March 31st, and that is the reason why you typically see promotions from Sony in March of every year. That is what Sony themselves have told me several times.

Vincent Oliver March 29th, 2011 10:07 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
I would also imagine that camera sales are not that buoyant at the moment, anything to keep the sales afloat wouldn't do any harm.

( No pun's intended in this post, re Japan tsunami)

Glen Vandermolen March 29th, 2011 10:17 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Durham (Post 1632357)
As a VG10 owner (the junior version of that camera) my opinion is that such cameras compliment the EX1, they don't replace it.

Select your own lens? Nice! The ability to take a 11mm lens with me on shoots that gives lovely wide shots while the EX1 does the donkey work is great.

But no power zoom? Aliasing? A shallow depth of field that makes run and gun next to impossible? It's hard work compared to an EX1 which just, well, works really.

These cameras are aimed at "film makers" who are prepared to sacrifice features for shallow DoF and the creativity of different lenses. Certainly the VG10 is a difficult and slow beast to shoot with. The results can be very rewarding but it can be a struggle getting there. If you have lots of time it isn't a problem but on shoots where time is at a premium it can be a challenge.

Cameras that can use DSLR lenses are extremely interesting but the technology is far from mature and they aren't really suited to the same kind of applications an EX1 is.

And of course if Sony haven't fixed the aliaising issues on this new camera it's not going to be able to justify its price tag.

I agree.
I am an XF305 owner and a VG10 owner. I've used both on shoots, the VG10 mainly for some "artistic" depth of field shots. But it is indeed a finicky camera, and the moire and aliasing drive me crazy! You don't notice it until after you upload the video. The two video images intercut nicely, although the XF is noticeably sharper.

For my go-to camera, it's the XF305. Now, the FS100 should remove all the video artifacts inherent of HDSLRs, yet retain the benefits of swapping lenses and shallow DoF. Plus, real video camera controls. I'd love to have the FS100 along with my XF. I can see using both cameras, but we'll see what economics dictate.

Can the FS100 or AF100 replace an XF300 or EX1/3? Hmm, I can't answer that question.

Don Parrish March 30th, 2011 05:52 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
I think it is possible that plans to roll out new stuff may have been compromised by the tradgedy in Japan. Plans for NAB may have changed for the big 3.

Alister Chapman March 30th, 2011 10:11 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
AFAIK there are no changes to Sony's NAB plans.

Piotr Wozniacki March 31st, 2011 04:04 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1633310)
AFAIK there are no changes to Sony's NAB plans.

I'd also think that at NAB, Sony will be showing results of their R&D effort starting a long time before the disaster happened. What might get delayed though is perhaps the time to market of production units after NAB.

Piotr

Werner Graf April 15th, 2011 05:31 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Daviss (Post 1632670)
I'm a bit concerned about the 'APS-C' moniker, as there's a Nikon variety and a Canon variety. The former is a little larger, so Nikkor APS-C lenses may work with F3 where Canon APS-C lenses may have a touch of vignetting. This is only armchair theory, not practical tests. Not sure if to sell the Canon or the Nikkor 17-55 f2.8 at the moment. (joking)

I'm very happy with my DSLR kit, but my EX1-Rs are still the go-to cameras in my niche. Was really happy for the 1/2" DoF in today's shoot. FS100 would have been a real handful (single camera must cover 6 people in conversation, shoot 20 mins, plus 5 mins retakes and some cutaway reaction shots to paper over the inevitable cracks in a 10 minute edit).

As Marcus says, great to replace a DSLR with the FS100 if you currently use a DSLR as a wide or B-Roll camera.

What would I want out of an EX1-S? Less noise, 50 Mbits, better mic pre-amps, 1080p50/60. An EX3-S? Ditto, maybe at 2/3rd inch. ;-)

The PMW X1/3 Micamp can easy cheap improved with the Tritonaudio Fethead Phantom plugged in the XLR Sockets Gainboost +18 db
Dont need to crank up so much the Gain - so less Noise form the PMW Micamps.

FetHead - tritonaudio

Matt Davis April 15th, 2011 05:39 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Thanks, Werner - what a find! Ordering now... (excited!)

Jose Carlos February 18th, 2012 10:25 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1632965)
True. The fiscal year for most Japanese companies, including Sony, ends on March 31st, and that is the reason why you typically see promotions from Sony in March of every year. That is what Sony themselves have told me several times.

The current promotion was extended until March 31st, giving credence to what you inferred above.

Despite all of the great points in this thread and others listing reasons why the EX* cameras probably won't be updated, I have a completely unsubstantiated "gut" feeling that the EX cameras (specially the EX3) will be updated sometime this year.

Luc De Wandel February 18th, 2012 11:26 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
When I read the promotional talk on this Sony rebate site:
Sony Business Solutions & Systems - Featured XDCAM EX Camcorder Rebates Extended, it says for the PMW-320:

"The PMW-320 supports multiple frame rate recording such as 59.94i, 50i, and native 23.98P and 25P as well as being 1080i/720P switchable and 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed output".

4:2:2 ? I always thought the 320 and 350 were 4:2:0 ? Or do they mean the HD-SDI output to an external recording device?

Chris Medico February 18th, 2012 11:28 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
They are referring to the SDI output.

Chris Clifton February 20th, 2012 08:41 AM

Re: PMW-EX* Successor?
 
I think the 320 is already the successor to the EX1 & 3 as people start moving back into full size camcorders after spending many hundreds if not thousands of dollars in support that make those small footprint cameras useable shoulder units. I have at least one of each EX. Nothing new at the BVE in Europe last week. I think there's too much market interest in the larger sensor cams for Sony to upgrade the EX's to 50mb/s---they didn't even do that with the F3! (which i also owned for a few months). Each EX has their own following, their own purpose with individual shooters. I also have a Nano. Absolutely agree with whoever wrote there is no discernable difference in 35 and 50mbs, unless you're keying. That is some old school BBC white paper broadcast thinking, indeed, IMO. For crying out loud, U.S. news networks ask us to shoot SD 16x9 so they don't have to pay for HD time on the satellites! And for web distribution---which is 90% of my work at the medical center, the point is moot again. These cameras make gorgeous pictures.


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