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Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old July 5th, 2011, 08:52 PM   #16
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

Use ClipBrowser with CRC On to copy and check the integrity.
Another other method is high risk. Drag and drop is an accident waiting to happen.

It seems as if you used ClipBrowser after drag and drop since you're mentioning copy and paste in your alternate workflow.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 03:16 AM   #17
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

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Originally Posted by Craig Seeman View Post
Use ClipBrowser with CRC On to copy and check the integrity.
Another other method is high risk. Drag and drop is an accident waiting to happen.

It seems as if you used ClipBrowser after drag and drop since you're mentioning copy and paste in your alternate workflow.
Have to agree with Craig, I would use CB all the time to transfer the clips from the card to a folder in my (external) hard drive.
Once copied I then would copy and paste the entire folder to my PC hard drive.
I use CB again (select all) to drag them into the Edius bin and then from there to the Edius timeline.

BTW I would make a second copy of the MxM/SxS cards to another external hard drive giving me 3 backup copies.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 03:23 AM   #18
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

I only use SxS and I'm so paranoid about losing footage since I had a DROBO fail that I now properly use all the facilities with ClipBrowser and I copy to two separate hard drives and check arrival in tact at those hard drives before I wipe the card and always ensure to use the eject / safely remove process.

My faith in the DROBO is gradually coming back.. but I don't think I'll ever have enough faith in anything other than the real SxS. I know the budget is too steep for some, and it caused me pain to invest in them - but the longer term decrease in tension at the point of data transfer is worth it.

I have recently invested in an SDHC card for my 550D and I must admit I bought off eBay at an amazingly good price (oops - is it fake??). Would be good to have a quick link on this site to manufacturers sites and pages relative to quality / validity / originality checks. I''d probably use one a key stroke after closing this posting..
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Old July 6th, 2011, 03:55 AM   #19
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

[QUOTE=Dave Gosley;1664781 and check arrival in tact at those hard drives before I wipe the card and always ensure to use the eject / safely remove process.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, forgot to add that Dave, check everything, Total duration/clips/size.

I use SxS cards and the MxM/combo.
An SxS card let me down one time.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 03:58 AM   #20
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

The actual prices of SDHC cards (less than 20 euro for a 16 Gb class 10 card, and still dropping) opens a completely new view on archiving problems. You can keep and archive the card forever at that price, just like an XDCAM disk. It costs the same price. But even then I would make copies on two external hard disks.

For my business (still photography, mainly concerts), I even had three backups disks: one was always kept in a different location, so that even burglary would not leave me without the original images. I had a commitment to my clients to safely keep their pictures for 10 years. The problem with video is that the files are not as straightforward as photo files, where each raw image is just one file to copy or to convert...
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Old July 6th, 2011, 10:31 AM   #21
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

G'day,

having read this thread and receiving another email from MxM, also suggesting using Clip Browser to do my transfers, I will modify my workflow to do that in future even though I dislike the program for many reasons. I guess I couldn't see the need to do so as I believe that copying data is just that....copying data, and should not corrupt without a physical problem causing it.

Cheers

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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:46 AM   #22
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

SDHC cards will not keep your data forever. They normally use MLC memory cells (Blue SxS uses SLC) which stores data bits using multiple voltage levels. The insulation of the cells is not always perfect so the charge in the cell can leak away over time leading to data corruption as the voltages decrease.

The more times you use a MLC memory cell the more the leakage increases (this is why Orange SxS cards have a limited cycle life). So if you are going to use SD cards for long term storage, don't use old cards that have been used many times. In addition cosmic particles (the same particles that damage sensor pixels) can punch holes in the insulators of multiple cells dramatically increasing the leakage or destroying them almost instantly, the only partial protection from this is to store the cards deep underground, but these high energy particles can even pass all the way through the earth. These damaging high energy particles come from distant super nova's and other cosmic sources, it's not sc-fi, it really does happen. A typical HD video sensor will loose around 3 to 5 pixels a year, although masking circuits normally stop these from showing up.

So as always the best protection is multiple storage devices, preferably stored in multiple locations. Never assume that any one device will work the next time you try to use it.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 04:26 PM   #23
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

Thanks for pointing this out, Alister. In fact, I should have known this, certainly as a regular reader of 'Astronomy Now'. I do have the impression that CCD's are more prone to lose pixels due to this bombardment than CMOS. I assume that is because of the 'charge' in 'charge coupled device'. Is that correct?
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Old July 7th, 2011, 08:00 AM   #24
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

I believe CMOS sensors are just as prone to damage, it's just the read out system used by CCD makes correction difficult, while on CMOS it's easy as each pixel can be addressed individually so masking is simpler and happens automatically. That's my understanding at least.
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Old July 7th, 2011, 03:39 PM   #25
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

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Originally Posted by Luc De Wandel View Post
The actual prices of SDHC cards (less than 20 euro for a 16 Gb class 10 card, and still dropping) opens a completely new view on archiving problems. You can keep and archive the card forever at that price, just like an XDCAM disk. It costs the same price. But even then I would make copies on two external hard disks.
SD cards are not a suitable media for long term storage. No manufacturer that I am aware of sells their products on the merits of its archival life, unlike tape or certain optical media.

However those people who question the durability and build quality of SD cards are probably underestimating just how tough these cards can be. There are people who test SD cards to destruction for fun. I can't find the website at the moment but these guys leave them in salt water for days, drive over them, put them through the dishwasher, leave them in a glass of cola and in one case exposed a card to radiation way beyond normal background levels. The cards seem to survive in most cases.

Just because something looks small and flimsy doesn't mean it's not tough. Wasn't there a story several months ago about a camera being picked up in some fishing nets that had been at the bottom of the sea for a considerable length of time and all the photos being recovered from the SD card?
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Old July 7th, 2011, 05:08 PM   #26
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

We use both SXS cards and Sandisk class 10 and ATP class 10 SDHC cards. With Class 10 we have not had any major problems. But we have modified our upload process to the following:

1. Copy and Paste BPAV folder to computer.
2. Go to ClipBrowser and review video to make sure it is what it is supposed to be. Then export to MXF.
3. Copy both to backup drive for duplication of data.
4. Create project in editor and bring in all MXF, etc. video for the project onto the timeline. Insure that all video is complete end to end and for all cameras.
5. Only then release the SDHC, SXS cards back to production.

Also, if you can't get the Browser to export the cards, manually go into the BPAV/CLPR folder and find the MP4 files. They are a maximum of ~3GB and go onto your timeline directly. What the Browser does is stitch them all together and put them into a MXF wrapper. This has saved us a few times because the Browser has had a problem with a glitch in the video file and won't export the file if that happens.

And lastly, I was at NAB in April and in talking with the Sony rep about the new FS100 35mm camcorder, I asked him why there was only one slot in the side. He said you don't need another slot because you will have Sony's new solid-state external drive that attaches to the side of the camera. Yea but, what about the price? The retail suggested price will be around $800US. Interesting, I thought. about the same price as an SXS card and much more memory capacity and functionality.

I suspect the SXS technology won't be around long with Sony. :)

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Old July 8th, 2011, 01:38 AM   #27
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

I think you are very wrong about SxS, it will be around for many years to come.

Arri also use SxS in their Alexa cameras. SxS has a lot of as yet un-used performance head room that consumer media does not have. Off-load speeds of close to 10x real time are possible with the newer cards with the right devices (QiO, MS240, Express Slot). There are probably many more PMW cameras in the pipelines, certainly more PMW with SxS than PDW with optical disc.

No, SD and consumer media is not for the professional market (and EX is really a pro piece of kit) because of stories like the one that kicked off the thread and the many other tales of disaster, data loss and compatibility questions. SSD might be the first consumer media to make some serious inroads due to it's cost per Gb attraction and extreme speed, but SxS is not going anywhere fast. It will most likely just continue to creep down in cost for some years to come.
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Last edited by Alister Chapman; July 8th, 2011 at 06:51 AM.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 02:33 AM   #28
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

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I think you are very wrong about SxS, it will be around for many years to come.

That's true. Sony are well known for persisting with formats everyone else has given up on. Betamax, Mini-Disc, DAT, etc. But in those cases there were at least multiple manufacturers of the media available which pushed down cost. SxS is a monopoly pure and simple and clearly nobody else thinks it worthwhile to produce the cards (the Sandisk versions are rarer than hens teeth and in anycase come from the same production line by all accounts).
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Old July 8th, 2011, 03:29 AM   #29
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

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However those people who question the durability and build quality of SD cards are probably underestimating just how tough these cards can be.

Just because something looks small and flimsy doesn't mean it's not tough.
The mere fact that is is flimsy makes it unsuitable for professional use, in my opinion. During the rush of a concert photo shoot, I put and throw cards everywhere: in my sweaty shirt pocket, on the bottom of my photo bag, etc... I've done this hundreds of time with the sturdy Compact Flash cards, but I would never risk it with SD(HC), because... it is flimsy and it hase exposed contacts. Simple as that.
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Old July 8th, 2011, 04:44 AM   #30
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Re: Narrowly averted disaster using MxM card

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Originally Posted by Luc De Wandel View Post
The mere fact that is is flimsy makes it unsuitable for professional use, in my opinion. During the rush of a concert photo shoot, I put and throw cards everywhere: in my sweaty shirt pocket, on the bottom of my photo bag, etc... I've done this hundreds of time with the sturdy Compact Flash cards, but I would never risk it with SD(HC), because... it is flimsy and it hase exposed contacts. Simple as that.
I don't see much sense in your argument. Just because something looks flimsy doesn't mean it is

Tape/cards/whatever shouldn't just be thrown around, put into back pockets etc. For a start the SDHC cards we use in our EX's should always live in a lockable adaptor, and secondly regardless of media you should never be stuffing them in pockets etc. What happens if you sit down or forget to remove them afterwards? Or worse, reinsert a card that has already been written to and then format it in the camera as one person posted on here a few months back.

Used cards and blanks should be kept separate. If you can't return them to a proper place in your camera bag you can buy belt pouches that are ideal. There is never any excuse for just stuffing cards into the nearest pocket.

Many of the problems we read about on this forum can be prevented by proper handling of the media regardless of type.
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