Canon J17 on EX3? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 23rd, 2012, 04:36 AM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 229
Canon J17 on EX3?

I am looking at a broadcast lens for the EX3. Specifically I want 16-20x, with a built in doubler for wildlife work. Has anyone got experience of Canon J17ax7.7 or Fujinon A18x7.6BERM please? Cost of these second hand in UK is reasonable, but any other ideas appreciated

Will I have electronic control and what sort of support will they need? 15mm rails? The alternative are my Canon lenses, but zoom / focus is crude by comparison and aperture has to be set on an EOS first.

Many thanks,

Nick.
__________________
Nick Wilcox-Brown

Last edited by Nick Wilcox-Brown; February 23rd, 2012 at 05:55 AM.
Nick Wilcox-Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2012, 08:41 AM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 562
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

Nick: I would definitely recommend rails. The lens mounting ring on the EX-3, while fairly robust, is nowhere near as strong as you may be used to on broadcast Sony cameras.

Without a special adapter, you will not have electronic control. Fuji makes a powered unit, the ACM-21 that attaches to the camera, and has a multi-pin connecter for your lens cable. MTF also makes a powered unit. But that's for Fuji lenses, not sure if the Canon brand uses the same connectors.

The other thing I noticed in mounting my Fuji 2/3 lenses to the Ex-3 by way of an unpowered MTF adapter, is that you need a very robust tripod to keep the camera steady at long focal lengths
Bill Ward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2012, 11:41 AM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 229
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

Bill, an incredibly helpful reply, thank you!

I have checked out the MTF adapters and they seem to be the way to go (the powered version is 2/3 price of the Fuji unit and EX3 dedicated). I will also look into lens supports or rails.

Let me double-check: equivalent focal length multiplier for 1/2" chip is 5.4 compared to 35mm, so a 200 mm lens is 1080mm equivalent + a 1.35 multiplier for the lens adapter is 1458mm? Is that correct?

I have spent many months trying tripods and heads; would love O'Connor, but not wealthy enough, so was going to settle on Sachtler 18 (100mm bowl, capacity of 20kg / 40Ib). Is that enough for these lenses in your opinion? Based on the above calculations, I'm not sure ? Should I go for more capacity?

Once again, thanks for the help.

Nick
__________________
Nick Wilcox-Brown
Nick Wilcox-Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 23rd, 2012, 03:41 PM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 56
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

Agree the MTF adopters are first class. And yes the 5x factor is in play. I had a Sachtler 18 back in the betacam days and it was beefy, but the 20 might serve you better on such long focal lengths. Also, the Canon 20x8 with doubler is a great 2/3 lens--factor in 1.3x I think it is? I can't remember for sure, but it should say in the manual.
Chris Clifton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24th, 2012, 06:03 AM   #5
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

Don't bother putting an SD 2/3" lens on an EX3. It's a bad match and you'll probably be disappointed. You have to consider that the pixels on a 2/3" SD camcorder are around 4 times bigger than those in an EX3, so the SD lens only needs to have around a quarter of the resolving power to work correctly at SD on a 2/3" camera than what's needed for full HD resolution on an EX3. A better match is a 1/2" SD zoom on the EX3 and I used to get acceptable results with a Canon 19x 1/2" lens.

A 2/3" HD zoom will work reasonably well on an EX3, but they don't come cheap. The Canon KH20 which is a 1/2" 20x zoom also works well.
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com
Alister Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24th, 2012, 09:55 AM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 229
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

Thanks Chris, Alister,

I think a Sachtler 20s is now on the list.

Agree with your lens thoughts broadly Alister, HJ are far more desirable, but a colleague contacted me 'off list' and suggested that I don't overlook the Canon J lenses. In my stills life, many of my Canon lenses have been replaced with increasing sensor resolution, but certainly not all. A couple of old favourites are still resolving beautifully with the equivalent of 8k in video world. I will certainly test very carefully before buying though and will try and get hold of a KH20 to compare with or buy.
__________________
Nick Wilcox-Brown
Nick Wilcox-Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24th, 2012, 12:02 PM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

I hear what your saying Nick, but going from a10MP sensor to a 20MP sensor is a much less significant increase in pixel size than going from 420K to 2MP AND reducing the sensor size by 30%.
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com
Alister Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24th, 2012, 01:54 PM   #8
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 229
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

Actually 3Mp on 35mm to 40Mp on 6x4.5cm (61mm diagonal), but I'm being pedantic and you are absolutely right.

I need to look very carefully at my lens options. I'm doing this for myself, and budget is constrained, but ultimately the target will be broadcast, so it has to be right and the results need to be good.I am going to get hold of a KH20 next week, to try

Interestingly on the tripod, I was watching Charlie Hamilton-James on 'Winterwatch', filming Otters in Dorset and was surprised by how much vibration there was. He seemed to be using a Sachtler 20, but to be fair he may have been using an HJ40 or similar on the Varicam, judging by the rails. I had considered tripod sticks and heads carefully but perhaps underestimated the effect of an unstabilised lens.

Thanks again for your thoughts Alister.
__________________
Nick Wilcox-Brown
Nick Wilcox-Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 24th, 2012, 04:32 PM   #9
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

The new Sachtler 20's are not as good as the old ones. For the last couple of years they have been made in Costa Rica, and they are just not as good as the old ones. Sometimes a lot of the problem is with the VCT-14 tripod plates which can be as wobbly as hell. Don't underestimate the effects of a long lens. When we use the 44x and 40 zooms on the air shows we have to use O'Conner 2675''s as anything lighter just isn't up to the job. For the Duran Duran concerts even the 2675's were borderline at 1000mm (on an F3). For most ENG style use a Sachtler 20 or Vinten Vision 100 would be good. I use a Vinten 100 with Fibertec legs (sadly no longer made) for longer lenses and heavier cameras (PDW-700, 350 etc) or a Vinten 5AS for more portable jobs.

The HJ40 is stabilised so even a little bit of wind should not bother it on the right tripod. A Sachtler 20 is not heavy enough for an HJ40 IMHO.
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com
Alister Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2012, 04:35 AM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 229
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

Incredibly useful information Alister, thank you. I took a look at the Vintens, but was not convinced by the legs I saw - that seems to be where Sachtler do have the edge (I notice Oconnor are now re-badging the Sachtelr ENG2 CF legs for the updated 1030 D/DS).

Food for thought...
__________________
Nick Wilcox-Brown
Nick Wilcox-Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 25th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #11
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK
Posts: 4,957
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

The ENG Vintens are generally lighter all round. The legs are thiner than the ENG Sachtlers. The Sachtler legs are very good, but I'm not so keen on the Sachtler staged drag and balance system, I prefer the Vinten continuously variable drag and balance. For me with all the travel I do the ENG Vinten's are my preference and they are much more compact, mainly due to the smaller cross section legs. The Sachtlers are considerably more bulky.

What I really want is my 5AS or Vision 100 for the travel and light to medium weight work and then an O'Conner 2675 on my heavy weight EFP Vinten Mitchel top legs, but the 2675 head is a serious investment.

Sachtler 20 is a good choice too of course for general all-round medium weight.
__________________
Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com
Alister Chapman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2012, 03:54 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 229
Re: Canon J17 on EX3?

Just to round this one off: Visual impact were kind enough to let me play with a bunch of gear the other day, so I had an HJ and a J22 to try + a j17, all with a Fujinon ACM21 2/3 to 1/2 inch adapter.

The 17 was ruled out quite quickly, but the J & HJ22 were surprisingly close in sharness in the centre. At the edge, the J was soft. Chromatic aberration was pronounced for edges, especially when not quite in focus and present on both lenses. Predictably the HJ was better (but around 3x the price). Both lenses were very acceptable for my uses.

Interestingly, I attended the 'Look, Listen, Experience' roadshow yesterday and Canon were showing a new HD KJ20 with built-in 2x converter at around GBP5000 / $8000 which I will be able to test very shortly. It is aimed as an option for cost conscious users, but resolves well for HD and will likely be my answer, depending on what happens at NAB.

On the tripod side, I was surprised by the difference the legs (not the head) made when trying these lenses at their long end. Accordingly, I ordered a Sachtler 18S1 with the ENG CF2 HD legs, subsequently changed for the O'Connor 1030D with 30L legs (re-badged Sachtler, as above); there is something about the O'Connor heads, probably more delicate, but SO smooth.

Alister, you were right about the Vinten Vision 100 - a great head, and smoother than the Sachtler, but the legs inspired no confidence.

Thanks for all the help along the way. Hope the lens stuff my help someone else?

Nick
__________________
Nick Wilcox-Brown
Nick Wilcox-Brown is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:48 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network