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Old August 11th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #136
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

I certainly would not disagree with all that has been stated about the negative effects of noise reduction. However, I would simply like to add this one slight "twist".

I recently did a very un-scientific test between my EX1r and my CX760. (sister to the NXCAM, NX30)
This test was just a very simple "noise only" test at different gain values.

EX1r at 0bd
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4564537/ex1%...%20-%200db.jpg

CX760 at 0db
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4564537/ex1%.../CX760_0db.jpg

As you all know, the EX1r has an excellent configuration of 3 full raster 1/2 inch sensors.
For those that might not know, the CX760 is HEAVILY disadvantaged with its tiny, single, Bayer pattern sensor that is slightly larger than 1/3rd inch. To make the situation even harder on the CX760, its a heavily over sampled sensor that has 6 million pixels on it. (Ouch!...VERY tiny photosites)

At 0db, the competition between the two is literally a joke. I was going to end the test right there but I decided to go further anyway. I started adding higher and higher gain and something shocking started to happen. The little, lowly, crippled CX760 started to catch up. By the time I got to +18db the distance between the two became ALLOT closer.

EX1r at +9db
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4564537/ex1%...0/EX1r_9db.jpg

CX760 at +18db
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4564537/ex1%...CX760_18db.jpg

Now,..allow me to say this. I am NOT saying these cameras are equal. They are not. The EX1r is far superior,...as it should be. It simply has the sensor configuration that DRASTICALLY outguns the little CX760. I KNOW the EX1r is great and I fully understand "why" it looks great. Everything is as it should be.

What shocks me is: "why does such a crippled little, 6 megapixel, Bayer pattern sensor,...look that good?" What is inside that darn thing?

It's like a watching a race between a world class Olympic runner against a one legged man on crutches. Yes, the world class runner wins, but the fact that the man on crutches is not "that" far behind him is quite extraordinary! (can anybody explain this?)

Yes, this "test" is not a true lab one. Yes, it has no motion to challenge the CX760 noise reduction. I do understand that there are allot of factors that this test does not take into account....agreed. (It's just a quick real world test)

I think we can all agree that the CX760 output is something that is amazing, given is heavy sensor configuration disadvantages.

In looking at the new PMW200. I hope that Sony is applying its newest, BEST and most current silicon technology combined with its latest and BEST post processing technology.

I think a simple PMW 200 option that lets the user pick between "low", "med" and "high" noise reduction options would be fantastic. (Lets the shooter decide)

I don't know the answers as to why but I just seem to see a strange imbalance between sensors that do, in fact, perform great and ones that are not "supposed" perform as well as they should based on the numbers.
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Old August 12th, 2012, 11:24 AM   #137
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

I shoot theatre with my NX5U, SR11, XR500 and CX700 and occasionally an EX3. The EX3 is used for closeups, NX5U mid and the small Sony's as fixed unattended cameras with AE shift at max negative. When the stage goes to full black the CX700 still has acceptable video noise at 21db for a full black screen and responds quickly to lights up again too. Very impressive. For really dark scenes where the EX3 has to go to 9db and the NX5U at 12db the CX700 has less visible noise than either of these cameras. The SR11 and NX5U are close in vintage so noise levels are similar. XR500 was the introduction of the backilluminated sensor and has noticeable better performance. The CX700 is only marginally better than the XR500. Looking at still images is good but not a true test of how visible noise is on a moving image. With gain the EX3 and the NX5U show the sensor artifacts in pan motion not present on the CX700. I keep wanting a NX5U replacement with sensors that are as good as my CX700 and 1920x1080 60P the rest of the camera is great !!!
My comments are for noise levels with large areas of black or dark colour where noise is very evident. Clearly both the NX5U and EX3 produce better overall output but when it gets really dark I would choose the little CX700 for least noisy picture as to the non-techie a clean picture is a better picture !!!

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Old August 20th, 2012, 02:26 PM   #138
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

This whole discussion about chip size and noise is highly significant. I like the use of the terms "raw sensitivity" or "native sensitivity" of the chip, as the final appearance of the output signal does indeed depend highly on applied processing. It may be possible to make a signal look superficially quieter - but it will indeed be at the expense of other factors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wilson View Post
The discussion between Panasonic executives and the broadcast folks is hysterical. But how can the 1/3" chip based HPX370 outperform the EX3 in low light and noise? The EX3 has 1/2" chips.
The simple answer is that the HPX370 most definately does not outperform the EX3. Panasonic describe the use of a technique called "3d noise reduction" which is understood to mean operating in height and width of the image AND with relation to time. More simply, comparing frame by frame, and assuming some differences to be down to noise and hence able to be averaged out.

That is obviously going to be less satisfactory when there is movement in the image, and it wasn't long before the problems were seen in reality - HPX371 Noise Issue? . The image looks fairly noise free on static scenes - but "noise ghosts" can be seen on moving images.

Panasonic issued a "fix" - which got rid of the noise ghosts...... but allowed the overall noise level up again. At the end of the day 1/2" chips will inevitably have a significant advantage over 1/3", and that's before we even think about depth of field and diffraction issues...... And that's why a camera with 1/2" chips and a fully approved codec at this price point is such a big deal.

Last edited by David Heath; August 20th, 2012 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Originally posted wrong link
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Old August 30th, 2012, 02:45 PM   #139
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
Plastic with an inner metal frame that can be seen through the cooling vents.
These cooling vents are worrying me, I have had major issues with massive amounts of dirt and dust on the inside of my cameras due to the conditions I film in so to have a opened vent would only make this worse?

Is this a camera I should avoid or is there some sort of clear sealed plastic cover I would be able to purchase?

The standard rain and dust covers avoid most of the dirt but its the tiny dust particles that still get through on them
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Old August 31st, 2012, 03:50 PM   #140
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dwyer View Post
These cooling vents are worrying me, I have had major issues with massive amounts of dirt and dust on the inside of my cameras due to the conditions I film in so to have a opened vent would only make this worse?
Three weeks ago Sony let me try a pre-production sample of the PMW-200 for a couple of days and I also noticed the large amount of cooling vents on the camera. In my feedback to Sony that was one of my remarks, but in reply Sony could confirm that the amount and size of vents will be much smaller on the production model soon to be shown.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 03:55 PM   #141
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dwyer View Post
These cooling vents are worrying me, I have had major issues with massive amounts of dirt and dust on the inside of my cameras due to the conditions I film in so to have a opened vent would only make this worse?

Is this a camera I should avoid ........
I haven't seen the camera in the flesh, but conceivably all there may be inside the vents are cooling fins? In which case the inners of the camera can still be fully sealed and completely isolated from any dirt/dust that gets in? Just a thought........
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Old September 1st, 2012, 12:49 PM   #142
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

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Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
I haven't seen the camera in the flesh, but conceivably all there may be inside the vents are cooling fins? In which case the inners of the camera can still be fully sealed and completely isolated from any dirt/dust that gets in? Just a thought........
I am really hoping so, its just seeing them makes me worried if its the right camera to filming outdoors in dirty/dusty conditions.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 03:30 PM   #143
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

Isn't the usual formula to pipe the heat away from the chips with a peltier device and then cool the hot side of the peltier? I can't believe that they would have any type of airflow going where the sensor is exposed.
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Old September 8th, 2012, 05:01 PM   #144
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

What better way to test the PMW-200 that to shoot some surfing video? Hurricane Leslie created larger than normal waves off the shores of Rhode Island the first week of September, resulting in some great surfing for this area. This video was shot near Point Judith Lighthouse in Narragansett.

Sony PMW-200 camcorder
XDCAM HD422 50Mbps /24P
720P @ 60fps
Century Optics 1.6 teleconverter
Edited in FCP7

A longer 12 minute version for the surfers will be posted in a couple of days.



VortexMedia.com/
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Old September 9th, 2012, 02:59 AM   #145
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

Thank you Doug for posting this !!! Looks very good and I like the idea to use the teleconverter for this.
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Old September 9th, 2012, 10:18 AM   #146
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

What a strange mixture of colours Doug, it looks like they are surfing on mud in some shots, whilst others are looking more appealing.
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Old September 9th, 2012, 10:44 AM   #147
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

It is a strange mixture of colors to me also. In parts it was very pinkish. Is this straight out of the camera or were some scenes graded?
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Old September 9th, 2012, 11:53 AM   #148
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

You are correct, the colors were strange. I threw some Magic Bullet looks on the first upload just for the hell of but, but I agree it looked odd.

I have replaced the original with a new version that is straight out of the camera with no grading. So, the differences between shots are now due to being shot on two different days. The first day was overcast and quite dark, the next day was bright sun in late afternoon. I mixed up the order of the shots so it goes back and forth between the two.
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Old September 12th, 2012, 12:18 AM   #149
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

The footage from the PMW-200 looks pretty damn good to me -

He mentions an aliasing problem, I wonder if this will be an issue. Is there much aliasing on the EX1 / EX1R?
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Old September 12th, 2012, 01:50 AM   #150
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Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line

Yes, Philip's video is very good, but you do not give the whole picture with your posting. Philip has graded the colours, so it is not a good example for anyone to judge the camera by, although still a good video.
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