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Old May 20th, 2013, 06:49 AM   #1
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Pmw-200 lcd

Hi, I am constantly finding that when filming and monitoring via the LCD what is see is nothing like what I get, say its in a church, a bit warm in color, I set the camera to 3200 , and it looks perfect on the screen, yet in post it's looks like 4000K to 4600K and then the skin tone is off. My EX1 is - What I see what I get. Why with the PMW-200 it so so far off. I Have also tested it with a Small HD 7" Monitor and the out put is different to the LCD. Why ?.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 09:39 AM   #2
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Robert, the best way to ensure accurate color reproduction any time you are shooting under man-made lighting is to set a custom while balance using a white card or a WarmCard. If you dial-in your own white balance setting with the menus, you are just guessing. And not only that, the camera only allows you to manually adjust the white balance for wamer or cooler, but that is only one axis of the white balance. Without the ability to also control the green & magenta axis, you are NEVER going to get a correct white balance by dialing in the color manually.

Personally, I would never judge color or exposure by any camera's flip-out LCD because they are not good enough for those purposes and will only lead to problems -- as you have seen firsthand. Another problem is that the color your eyes see is influenced by the ambient light. Try holding a piece of colored gel over one eye for a few mintues, take it away, and then look at the difference between what your two eyes are reporting to your brain. Which one are you going to believe?

On the other hand, If I take the time to correctly set a custom white balance with a reference card I am guaranteed to get a perfect white balance every time -- regardless of what the LCD shows or how my eyeballs perceive it. I guess that discipline comes from several decades of working with B&W viewfinders before color came along. Anyone who worked in those days knows you had to be be very strict on how and when you set the white balance. Yeah, a color VF is nice to have, but I wouldn't trust it for critical decision making.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 10:12 AM   #3
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Just adding to what Doug said, you would benefit by calibrating your LCD as that will get you close and it sounds like you aren't right now. Here's a good tutorial:
Calibrating your viewfinder or LCD. | XDCAM-USER.COM
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Old May 20th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #4
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

There is a green/yellow shift issue with some of the newer Sony camera LCDs like the 200. It's been reported from owners that have both an EX1 and a newer camera in their possession.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...our-shift.html
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Old May 20th, 2013, 04:28 PM   #5
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

The point I was trying to make is that whether or not there is a color shift on the LCD is irrelevant to setting a proper white balance and recording video with correct colors. Those are two separate issues. It doesn't matter how out of whack the LCD looks like, there is no excuse for not recording perfectly white balanced video if someone follows the tried and true white balancing techniques that have been used for decades -- even with B&W viewfinders.

If the LCD sucks, then I recommend sending the camera back to Sony and getting it repaired or getting a refund. But in the mean time, that should have no bearing on recording proper colors. Two separate issues.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 05:26 PM   #6
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Thanks Guys, Looks like i will get out the warm card i purchased from Doug. I there is a white card in there. So just let me confirm, if i am in a church, get someone to hold the white card where the B&G Stand , white balance on that and don't worry about the color setting or look in the LCD. in camera it should be pretty close.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 07:13 PM   #7
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Robert, that should work great. It's worked fine for me for 30 years!
Good luck.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 07:44 AM   #8
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Guys,

using neutral white card is the best option when one has a time for it. But I often dont have time or someone to hold the card at events. Than I need to balance on some "white" object that can be very inaccurate and I need to check a result on LCD/VF. Or I need to know if white need to be balanced after moving from one room to another. LCD on EX1/EX1R was good enough for that but LCD on pmw200 crappy off...
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Old May 21st, 2013, 07:56 AM   #9
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Personally, in over 30 years of shooting, I've never run into a situation where couldn't be bothered with white balance, focus, or exposure. I am a professional and it is my job to be able to do those things quickly, efficiently, and as often as is necessary.

Even on 9/11 in New York City, I white balanced.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 12:47 PM   #10
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Doug,

I white balance at any situation, too. But my point is that I dont always have a luxury to use white card for that to be sure of result.

Just one example: On wedding, newlyweds go out of church. I take one shot inside the church, than run outside for second shot. I have literaly 2 seconds to frame and set WB, focus and exposure. I have no aid to hold white card for me or second operator with second camera waiting for outside shot.

I use to save outside WB before ceremony to another preset but weather may change, so often I need to set WB manualy.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 01:10 PM   #11
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Lukas,

You might want to try shooting the outdoor stuff on a 5800K Preset. Then you could just flip the WB switch from memory A or B to Preset when you go outside without stopping to set the white balance.

At first this may seem to contradict what I have posted above about always setting the white balance manually, but it does not. Although I always set a custom white balance with a WarmCard or white card under man-made lighting, I almost never white balance outdoors during the daytime. I stopped doing that about 5 years ago when I realized I no longer wanted my colors to look the same throughout the day.

Let me repeat: Indoors under man-made lighting, I always white balance manually. There are no exceptions. But outdoors during daylight, I pretty much never white balance manually and prefer to use a Preset between 5600K to 6000K (depending on the camera) which I have setup beforehand.

Think about it. The sun is always the same color temperature and never changes. But what does change during the day are the atmospheric conditions that change the color of the light (i.e. warmer at sunset) and I prefer not to cancel those natural color changes out. I DO want my whites to look warmer at sunset and bluer at midday. It's natural so why cancel it out? The only exception is when I use a WarmCard to purposely change the white balance outdoors, but I would never use a white card outdoors.

I hope this makes sense. For some people this is an advanced concept that they can't quite understand unless they go out and try it for themselves.
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Last edited by Doug Jensen; May 21st, 2013 at 01:43 PM.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 07:10 PM   #12
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Thanks Doug, this is true, out side under sun, its is a lot better. i find man made lighting the problem. When i arrive at a wedding i set a outside temp and inside temp with the preset switches. But will use the white card for inside from now on. Ta. i see how i go. I going to re watch your dvd about Gamma and white knee, just need to brush up on the setting for filming out side , some times i blow the white wedding dress out, did you have any options to add, re Gamma and Exposure.
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Old May 21st, 2013, 10:01 PM   #13
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Doug, you threw me when you said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
Even on 9/11 in New York City, I white balanced.
but then you later said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Jensen
Although I always set a custom white balance with a WarmCard or white card under man-made lighting, I almost never white balance outdoors during the daytime. I stopped doing that about 5 years ago when I realized I no longer wanted my colors to look the same throughout the day.
I'm confused. What were you shooting on 9/11 that required white balancing?
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Old May 21st, 2013, 10:48 PM   #14
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Well, the answer is simple if you read closer. 9/11 was 12 years ago and viewfinders were all B&W back then so you had to be very disciplined about white balancing. As I said in my last post, times change and I stopped white balancing outdoors about 5 years ago after I started editing more of my own work and decided I didn't want my colors to look the same all day long. I hope that clears up the confusion.

As an example, here's a quick little video I shot last month after NAB where I used a 5800K preset throughout. Why would I want to white balance during the day and lose the natural tones of light as the day progressed?


The whole point of white balancing is to make whites look approximately the same in all shooting environments -- but sometimes that is the wrong creative decision. Thus, I use Preset outdoors and WarmCards indoors 99% of the time.
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Old May 22nd, 2013, 07:12 AM   #15
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Re: Pmw-200 lcd

Setting the white balance is something that sets apart experienced photographers. I do it all the time but I have the luxury of using the LCD on my EX1R to know if my preset is off and I need to set a custom one. This happens frequently when shooting at the end of the day and after moving in and out of shade and full sun A camera's LCD is a useful tool and when calibrated properly, makes getting well exposed recordings fast and with less cognitive load allowing for more creativity.

In the case of the PMW-200 intended to replace the EX1(r), I don't give Sony a pass for using an LCD with a green/yellow color shift. Add it to the list of design flaws of the PMW-200. The EX1 had it's share of flaws many of which were fixed in the EX1R. No camera is perfect.
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