Expresscard Adapters... do they work?

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by Les Wilson

The record here on DVINFO is clear. Whenever the topic comes up, you defend SDHC. I know someone who had a totally dead SDHC card. Now what? Oh, wait. Problems with SxS are less frequent than SDHC. Oh. OK. SDHC is the cheap route. Caveat Emptor.

My viewpoint is one of wanting to help users enjoy the same flawless shooting experience I have experienced. When adaptors were newer and there were still problems I conducted many experiments with adaptors and cards until I found a combination that worked. I then chose to share that information in the face of much mis-infornation that was on here and other forums.

Today SDHC is officially supported in the firmware and cards are faster. If someone wants to pay 10 times the price for media then that is their call but they shouldn't be subjected to vague claims and scaremongering.

[Jack Zhang]

Originally Posted by Rob Cantwell

i have a PMW 200 and i have a 64 Gig SxS card in Drive A and a Sony MEAD-SD02 Adaptor with a Sandisc 64 Gb SDXH card, in Drive B.

The adaptor is used primarily as a backup or if the SxS gets filled up. I tend to not take the card out of the adaptor constantly, because i think that wear and tear might cause faults with it.

with the adaptor I lose the capacity to use UDF format and hence cant shoot the 50 Mbps MPEG HD422 codec.
So while the adaptor, at least for me is a cheaper option, there is a trade-off in recording quality.

XQD supports UDF if you want to retain shooting in XDCAM HD422.

My primary recording setup changed to a similar 2 card setup, but I use XQD as slot 1. Also, I only have FAT recording mode cause I'm on an EX1R.

[Les Wilson]

Originally Posted by Marcus Durham

...Today SDHC is officially supported in the firmware and cards are faster. If someone wants to pay 10 times the price for media then that is their call but they shouldn't be subjected to vague claims and scaremongering.

The OP is asking about an old camera right in the suite spot of the difficulties. The problems were real. You will even recall that specific combinations stopped working well because of changes at the factory.

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by Les Wilson

The OP is asking about an old camera right in the suite spot of the difficulties. The problems were real. You will even recall that specific combinations stopped working well because of changes at the factory.

In my testing nearly all of the problems were down to bottlenecks in the adaptors and the cards. Simply put the early combinations had so little transfer headroom that as soon as a some extra write speed was required it wasn't there and the faults occurred.

Modern SD cards are many times faster than those in 2009. The latest Sandisk Extreme Pros are rated to 95 MB/s. The new firmware introduced in 2010 also improved things.

From memory, in '09 I found that some combinations of SD and adaptors were struggling to achieve 35fps in overcrank for about 10 mins before a media error. Transfers tests to a computer showed that speeds were indeed poor so it wasn't a camera issue.

The newer adaptors + ATP cards could fill a card at 45fps. This seemed to be all the camera could take before the firmware fix but it was fine to shoot standard 25fps. When tested on a computer these cards were much faster. Certainly faster than the camera needed even in over crank so at that point the bottleneck became the camera firmware itself.

Today I can fill a 32gb Sandisk Extreme card at 50fps with no issues at all. I'm on the 2010 firmware (if it ain't broke don't fix it).

[George Odell]

Originally Posted by Marcus Durham

... I conducted many experiments with adaptors and cards until I found a combination that worked. I then chose to share that information in the face of much mis-infornation that was on here and other forums.

Today SDHC is officially supported in the firmware and cards are faster. If someone wants to pay 10 times the price for media then that is their call but they shouldn't be subjected to vague claims and scaremongering.

Marcus:

I, for one, would be interested in the combination you are currently using... adapter and cards. My needs, as a renter not an owner, are a bit different. My local rental house charges big $$ for the cards. $50 for a 16gb and $75 for a 32. That adds much to a rental for a camera at $300 and makes my doing small half day shoots that much less lucrative.

If I can save on not renting cards that's $$ in my pocket. I also like the fact that I can take the cards home and save them until I know the client's drive is safe and sound. There is much to like, for me at least, about using SDHC and if you can help me cut through the noise on what works and what does not I would appreciate it.

My needs are mostly standard speed work 1080/60I for NSTC TV. Have no need for high speed work.

What should I be using for this kind of shooting?

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by George Odell

Marcus:

I, for one, would be interested in the combination you are currently using... adapter and cards.

I'm currently using MxM adaptors along with Sandisk Extreme 32gb cards. You may prefer to go for 16GB cards instead if you prefer your data in smaller chunks (the theory being the same as with longer video tapes, the more you put on a storage device the more you stand to lose).

I strongly advise anyone to test any storage device before they use it in the field, be it SD, SxS, SSD or whatever. It's just good practice. If it's faulty out of the factory that's going to be a problem once you are in the field.

Do ensure your firmware is from 2010 or more recent. It irons out a few little niggles and clears that final bottleneck between the adaptor and the camera.

Always purchase your SD cards from a reputable supplier. In the UK Amazon sell for Sandisk directly so you can be sure you have genuine cards.

[George Odell]

Thanks, Marcus.

Question for you. Does it make sense, when testing a batch of cards, to run the camera for a period of time at a higher than normal frame rate as a better test of that cards write ability? Even though I may only need normal speed it might show the card more likely to falter or fail with the high speed test.

My understanding is, the EX3 will indicate if there is a write error while shooting... is this correct?

[Jack Zhang]

That's what I do, Overcrank by shooting 60fps and recording 24fps. The best thing to test the encoder is analog snow. Use analog snow to throw random data at the encoder which will use the maximum bitrate possible and if the entire card survives the test, it should be good.

One thing to watch out for is shrinking headroom for transfer rate over time. As files are being re-written, there is a possibility of a buffer overrun with the camera which would automatically end the recording and not indicate a failure.

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by George Odell

Thanks, Marcus.

Question for you. Does it make sense, when testing a batch of cards, to run the camera for a period of time at a higher than normal frame rate as a better test of that cards write ability? Even though I may only need normal speed it might show the card more likely to falter or fail with the high speed test.

My understanding is, the EX3 will indicate if there is a write error while shooting... is this correct?

Yes, if you run at a higher than usual frame rate then that does test the write ability. Make sure the camera is pointing at something that keeps the codec working though. Some sports footage, or as someone else said analogue static. Fill the card right up until the camera quits.

And offload and check the footage afterwards. Does it transfer ok? Does it play ok? No dropped frames etc. Transfer using XDCAM Browser with CRC turned on just to be sure.

One thing I can't tell you is how well the cards perform at 60fps as I've only ever gone as high as 50fps.

Also remember overcranking is totally unsupported so do not rely on it in the field.I wouldn't want anyone relying on it when Sony have stated that it isn't supported

That said, I have accidentally shot onto SD at 50fps in the field by forgetting to switch cards and everything was fine. But do not rely on it.

Final thing is to ensure you have enough media and rotate it. I have so many cards and adaptors on average they only get used every 4 weeks or so. Last year I also refreshed a load of my older ATP cards from 2009 with new Sandisk cards. The ATP's are still fine but I felt that at current prices I might as well and then the ATP's could be used in my Go Pro and other cameras. All cards are named and labelled with the date they went into service just to be sure.

[Rob Cantwell]

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

XQD supports UDF if you want to retain shooting in XDCAM HD422.

yeah i had considered going the XQD path until i priced them at a supplier i use.

the Sony XQD 32 Gb is €300 and the adaptor is €71 while the Sony SxS 32 Gb is €336, not much advantage there really. Crazy pricing.
In B&H things are slightly better with the Sony XQD 32 Gb for $209 while the SxS 32 Gb is $338

[Jack Zhang]

Originally Posted by Rob Cantwell

yeah i had considered going the XQD path until i priced them at a supplier i use.

the Sony XQD 32 Gb is €300 and the adaptor is €71 while the Sony SxS 32 Gb is €336, not much advantage there really. Crazy pricing.
In B&H things are slightly better with the Sony XQD 32 Gb for $209 while the SxS 32 Gb is $338

I'm only going down that route to future-proof myself in case SxS starts becoming faux pas with all the 4K prosumer cameras using that format.

[Les Wilson]

Originally Posted by Marcus Durham

My viewpoint is one of wanting to help users enjoy the same flawless shooting experience I have experienced. .....

This just in ... an MXM adapter:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...ml#post1826288

[Shaun Roemich]

I own a PMW200 and SxS cards now but prior to that I rented and borrowed EX1/EX3/EX1R cameras regularly, almost always recording to SD cards in adaptors. One needs to be VERY careful (as noted here) to make sure that the card holds up for an extended recording - for example, SanDisk Ultra 32GB cards fail every single time in my application at 35mbps right around 12 or so minutes... which coincides with the 4 GB mark, the maximum allowable file size on a FAT 32 file system. My SPECULATION is the card is fast enough to write to but not fast enough to close one file, append the FAT and the open the next file and start writing.

Transcend, ADATA, Lexar all worked for me on the low end - SanDisk Extreme worked at the higher end.

I have since bought 2 x 64GB (and have a 16GB SxS-1) cards and don't sweat anything any more. In fact, for my own projects I have switched exclusively to 50mbps.

It wasn't worth it to me to take chances with SDHC cards any more.

[Jack Zhang]

As I said, I moved on to XQD after problems with heavily used Sandisk Extremes (32GB ones that have been used a lot in XA10s) and also the Sandisk Ultras too. The Ultras just don't have enough write speed headroom to record reliably, but they are good for transferring files from XQD.

Warning about Lexar Platinum IIs, they have a short lifespan. The controller chip inside those SD cards fail after a while of use. Yes, they are fast, but they give out I'd say within 2 months if you're using the cards every day.

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by Les Wilson

This just in ... an MXM adapter:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...ml#post1826288

So what firmware is he on? What card did he have in the adaptor? Was it genuine media from the likes of Sandisk or was it some cheap and cheerful Chinese card that a distributor slaps a sticker on and claims is made to a certain spec?