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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PXW-Z280, Z190, X180 etc. (going back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.

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Old October 9th, 2018, 07:03 AM   #16
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Re: Can't decide: PXW-Z190 versus PXW-Z280

Agreed Doug, but then again, look at what Sony does. Sony lists the Z190 at f11@2000...in high sensitivity mode at 0db (really 12db!). It seems that any new camera that comes out must at least meet a fictional f11@2000 (NTSC) spec. JCV does the "high sensitivity" mode, call it extended, but it's only 6db. Same with Panasonic, it's a solid 6db. HPX2000/3000 had a button called "line level", did the same thing.

Would you join me Doug, in calling for a ban on the "high sensitivity" ratings and specifications, and a return to "0db means no gain!". :-D

Paul
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Old October 9th, 2018, 07:48 AM   #17
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Re: Can't decide: PXW-Z190 versus PXW-Z280

Sure, I'll join you in that, but I'll go one better . . .

The manufacturers should just publish honest ISO figures. That's all you need to know about a camera if the manufacturer reports the numbers honestly. Don't get me wrong, I am totally against displaying ISO numbers in the viewfinder because gain is much more informative. But in the camera's specifications they should tell us the true ISO of the camera instead of LUX, or f11@2000 or some crap like that. I don't even know what that means!! On the other hand, if you tell me _____ camera is rated at _____ ISO with the default paint menus, I know exactly what that means and can easily compare it with other cameras.

How the camera looks with additional gain added (whether it is regular gain or High Sensitivity gain) is a totally different matter and must be evaluated by actually looking at the picture quality and making judgement calls. You cannot compare one camera's gain against another simply by the numbers. One camera at 12dB gain might look way better than another camera at 12db gain even if the exposure is the same.
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Old October 9th, 2018, 08:17 AM   #18
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Re: Can't decide: PXW-Z190 versus PXW-Z280

I don't understand ISO ratings at all!

f@ figures make a lot of sense to me, especially when comparing B4 cameras, simply because aperture is always roughly the same, and if you see an f@ number increase one stop, you know the camera will do a 0db what it's predecessor did at 6db...speaking from an exposure level, not noise level.

I still have no clue WTF 1.5 lux in low light mode is on my Z90...and despise Sony's use of rating the big Sony's with a lux at 42db or with 64 frame accumulation! 0.000002 lux at 48db + 64 frame accumulation...go to hell Sony :-P

Paul
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Old October 9th, 2018, 10:08 AM   #19
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Re: Can't decide: PXW-Z190 versus PXW-Z280

Wow, you really take this stuff personally. :-)

I just evaluate what the camera can actually do and move on. It only takes a few minutes to figure out the true sensitivity of the camera and how much gain I find acceptable. Once I know the limitations, I can get down to work making money with it.

BTW, you really should understand ISO. It's the same as ASA and has been around for a hundred years. All still photographers, cinematographers, etc. use the numbers as an international standard for exposure sensitivity. Even if you don't use it, you should understand it.
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Old October 12th, 2018, 09:31 AM   #20
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Re: Can't decide: PXW-Z190 versus PXW-Z280

The thing with "0db" versus what we often call "native ISO" rating (and dual-gain/ISO settings) is that these two values are completely set from the camera maker.

Every sensor has a pre-amp amount that is added after its voltage collection. The sensor needs to be amplified to reach what the company wants to be a "respectable" 0db. So,..."0db" already has tons of preamp in it that we have no access too. If Sony wants their "0db" to equal 100 ISO or 400 ISO, they simply preamp the sensor to get the "ISO" they want for "0db".

Now....here is the trick! The more preamp they use to make a brighter "0db",...the LESS overhead WE have to go over 0db for ourselves. In other words,...if our 0db looks ok but our 12db is noisy as hell, that means Sony "used up" some of the signal to noise ratio overhead with higher preamp to give us the 0db brightness they thought was good.

I hope that makes sense. This is why the A7S sensor has sooooo much gain overhead. Because the collection voltages are already so high, that Sony doesnt need high preamp values. That "0db" is already very bright on its own....so to speak. Therefore, when we start cranking 12, 18, 24db....it STILL looks phenominal. The sensor's signal to noise ratio is NOT being "used up" on high amounts of sensor collection pre amp.

Tiny image sensors cannot do this, therefore camera companies need to crank that preamp to make a reasonably bright "0db"

With small image sensors, a camera maker's last option is to add more and more and more and more noise reduction processing to recover some of that signal to compensate for a dim sensor, high gain output. Noise reduction is the last line of denfense. However, that truck itself also brings it own problems to the table.

I have no idea how good or bad the Z190 and Z280 performs yet. However, I cant wait to get some original files to look at first hand.

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; October 12th, 2018 at 05:22 PM.
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