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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old April 20th, 2007, 02:08 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet View Post
Are there even any express card adapters for desktop based computers? Newer laptops have the slots but what options will we have for our main editing systems?
http://www.psism.com/expressadapter.htm

Never mind I already found a Express Card adapter for desktop PC's for only $59.00. Not bad for a cheap capture/transfer drive.
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Old April 20th, 2007, 03:05 PM   #107
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I wish they would have put a DV tape transport along with the card slots for easy cheap recording; but oh well.
Sorry Joel, anything branded XDCAM will not have tape associated with it.

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Old April 20th, 2007, 03:33 PM   #108
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About the only advantage Panasonic still has with the HVX200 is that it records 4:2:2 color which unless you plan on doing any keying isn't going to blow you away. Yes 4:2:2 can have slightly better color precision but most people with real world footage would never notice. If 4:2:0 is done well it can look very good.
I don't know if you saw the thread Thomas, but just about a month ago, a gentleman posted here that they had bought an F330 for their tv station's production department. He was blown away by how clean the keying was in the 4:2:0 video.

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Old April 20th, 2007, 04:09 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet View Post
Newer laptops have the slots but what options will we have for our main editing systems?
Some very good options by the look of it - http://www.pcw.co.uk/personal-comput...grate-desktops !!

And I also feel the 4:2:2 v 4:2:0 argument is getting very thin. These numbers are just ratios, and it is far more instructive to look at actual pixel matrices - just how many Y,U,V samples there are in a frame. 4:2:2 sounds a lot better, but it should never be forgotten that for 720p DVCProHD the "4" is referencing 960 horizontally, not 1280. Hence only 480 horizontal chroma samples - NOT the 640 that may be imagined.

I take many of these numbers arguments very lightly. I find it more significant that SxS is based on ExpressCard, whilst P2 is based on a form factor which is rapidly disappearing (Cardbus). That is beyond dispute or argument. As appears to be that SxS will be much cheaper per GB.

And to quote from the article linked above: "Expresscards effectively extend the PCI-Express bus to peripherals, where the old PC Cardbus slot extends the PCI bus." That's a pretty big advantage.

What does remain to be seen is when Sony may bring out a 2/3" SxS camera. That really should put the cat amongst the pigeons.
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Old April 20th, 2007, 04:33 PM   #110
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To me it always felt like Panasonic had not quite drained the think tank all the way when they came up with their tapeless media.

There are five things that people want in a medium - recording capacity, affordability, reliability, ease of access to recorded content, archivability.

Unfortunately P2 sacrificed several of those criteria to give a slight improvement in reliability and (theoretical) ease of access to content.

Sony's XDCAM HD on disc is a really well though-out system as it improves on every single on of those criteria over tape.

Personally I think Panasonic would have been better off with hard-drive cartridges and a large buffer.
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Old April 20th, 2007, 04:46 PM   #111
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Guys I am totally on your side about 4:2:0 not being that bad. The only reason I brought it up is that it will be the only point Panasonic will be able to try and make.

Greg, I work with visual effects footage all the time and I agree with you. 4:2:0 can be very very clean if the right tools are used. I have keyed some 4:2:0 material that totally blew even me away. I am a compositing artist and I used to be a hardcore freak about 4:2:2 and even 4:4:4 video. I do still prefer 4:2:2 over 4:2:0 if I have the option but I will not cry over 4:2:0 if that is what is given to me. While the 4:2:0 on XDCAM does give great results the 4:2:2 version of XDCAM is even better yet if you can believe it. I have worked with a lot of 50 mbit 4:2:2 and 80 mbit 4:2:2 footage to see the results that it is better for keying. Really though it is a small advantage and in the end only really comes down to slightly cleaner and sharp edges.
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Old April 20th, 2007, 04:54 PM   #112
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Exactly Thomas. I knew you weren't making a really big deal about it, but I wasn't aware that you did a lot of compositing work. Always good to hear from those actually working with the stuff. Your comments make at least two cases for clean keys in 4:2:0. Besides, green is always full bandwidth chroma sampling, while red and blue are subsampled. This is why green screen work is fairly easy because the camera records highly detailed green information. That, coupled with the higher resolution of HD vs. SD to differentiate small detail areas in the scene are what I believe makes it possible to pull such clean keys.

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Old April 20th, 2007, 05:20 PM   #113
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Before putting the colour sampling issue to rest (finally, I hope) it has always been my understanding that 4:2:2 (v 4:2:0) has more point in an interlace system than in a progressive one, simply because with 4:2:0 interlace there would be two chroma samples on adjacent lines (fields 1 and 2), then two lines with no chroma for the same reason.

In a progressive system, that argument doesn't apply, and 4:2:0 then means halving the chroma resolution relative to luma horizontally and vertically - the system is balanced. And compared to 4:2:2, I can see merit in reallocating the "lost" vertical pixels to extra luminance and chrominance pixels horizontally.

Trying to get back on topic, then whilst technically I find the EX the biggest thing potentially since the Z1, I do wish they could have taken a leaf from JVCs book regarding form factor. The ergonomics of the HD100/200 series are generally found to suit a camera of this size/weight so much better than the ergonomics of the Z1 or the HVX200.

And the next question must be how JVC themselves will respond to this? I seem to recall they have hinted at solid state for the future themselves - will they also use SxS? And when!?
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Old April 20th, 2007, 05:27 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Greg Boston View Post
Sorry Joel, anything branded XDCAM will not have tape associated with it.

-gb-

How about a Hard drive??? I know this XDcam EX camcorder records on SxS cards but is it possible to attach and record with a hard drive as well?? I know the V1 offers that option to simultaneously record on tape and that optional drive that Sony offers as well for archivng and back-up purposes. And I believe the Panasonic HVX200 has the ability to be firewired to a hard drive for recording(I could be wrong on this). Any word if this cam can do the same??


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Old April 20th, 2007, 05:41 PM   #115
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I know the V1 offers that option to simultaneously record on tape and that optional drive that Sony offers as well for archivng and back-up purposes.
A harddrive (such as a Firestore) makes a good complement to a tape based camera - Firestore for immediate use, tape for backup/archive - but I'm not so sure about it's relevance here. They both may be seen as non long term media, unlike tape or disc - comparable rather than complementary.

But you've got me thinking. What about a Firestore type device which attachs to an existing tape based camera (DSR450 or whatever), but records to SxS as opposed to it's own hard drive?

I doubt Sony would want to market such a device, they'd no doubt prefer to sell you a brand new camera. But surely there's nothing to stop a third party (such as Firestores makers) bringing out such a device?
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Old April 20th, 2007, 06:33 PM   #116
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Has anybody heard yet what the initial price of the cards will be?
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Old April 20th, 2007, 06:36 PM   #117
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Has anybody heard yet what the initial price of the cards will be?
Not yet. Sony says they'll be firming up all that information and will release it in the August timeframe. It's also undetermined at this point whether the sub 8K price tag will include any media.

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Old April 20th, 2007, 07:05 PM   #118
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I think important thing here is that this camera is still about six months away and many features could change.

I do see a trend here: The People want flash cards and HD SDI out. And Sony is recognizing it with this offering.
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Old April 20th, 2007, 07:09 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ozzy Alvarez View Post
How about a Hard drive??? I know this XDcam EX camcorder records on SxS cards but is it possible to attach and record with a hard drive as well?
I believe it is compatible with the HVR-DR60 portable drive, the same one which works with the Z1 and V1: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...p=142&id=85967
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Old April 21st, 2007, 05:58 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet View Post
http://www.psism.com/expressadapter.htm

Never mind I already found a Express Card adapter for desktop PC's for only $59.00. Not bad for a cheap capture/transfer drive.
Fine, but how about those PC's that don't have PCI-Express interface? How will a SxS ExpressCard reader connect - if not to use the recorded clips directly, then at least for drag'n'drop copying to the HDD?
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