Sony XDCAM EX -- a bunch of pics

Greg Boston · April 28th, 2007, 05:16 PM

4:2:2 isn't happening on this model. The forthcoming 2/3 camera is the only one that's going to support the higher bit rate.

-gb-

Steven Bothe · April 29th, 2007, 02:06 AM

HD SDI out means at least 4:2:2 with the HD SDI right?

Greg Boston · April 29th, 2007, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Bothe

HD SDI out means at least 4:2:2 with the HD SDI right?

Yes it does. That's pretty much the case with any camera offering HDSDI if you take a live signal from the camera. Once it gets recorded though, the MPEG compression and chroma subsampling have already taken place.

-gb-

Craig Hollenback · May 21st, 2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Lach

It would not make sense to provide this camera as a 4:2:2 model, considering they just released a new high end XDCAM HD 4:2:2 recording at 50mbps VBR. Therefore you can probably assume it'll be 4:2:0 (which has been said to hold color info exceptionally well for such a low chromatic resolution).

It's my understanding having spoke with Sony today, that it will record in the 50mb mode as 4:2:2

David Lach · May 21st, 2007, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Hollenback

It's my understanding having spoke with Sony today, that it will record in the 50mb mode as 4:2:2

That might be true, but logic says it won't since they have a much more expensive model shooting 4:2:0 35mbps. That would be odd to have better specs on the lower end model.

Of course, I'm not going to complain if it happens. ;)

Thomas Smet · May 21st, 2007, 02:15 PM

Wasn't it true that the current XDCAM HD cameras actually down converted to 4:2:0 before the live signal was sent out SDI? I remember at one point there were a lot of threads about this. The signal was still uncompressed but the chroma sampling was reduced for whatever reason. I hope what I remember was just false information at the time.

If it was true however I wonder if SONY would limit the SDI output on this camera the same way.

As to the 4:2:2 recording mode... I do think it is something that SONY could decide to do. I mean the media and camera itself could handle it no problem at all. It all comes down to how good they want to make this camera.

If SONY is really trying to target this camera at HVX200 users which it pretty much is then it may make sense for them to also have the 4:2:2 mode. This would mean the camera would pretty much kill the HVX200 is almost every single aspect.

HD-SDI
longer recording times
cheaper media.
full resoultion 4:2:2 recording
1/2" chips

These are all things the HVX200 does not have.

If the SONY does not have the 4:2:2 mode then I'm sure there will be debates and heated arguments all over this and other forums about how the HVX200 is still better because it records 4:2:2 color right to the card. Regardless if it is better or not the focus of the argument will be there and many people may be afraid of 4:2:0. Many of us already know 4:2:0 is not bad at all but it is hard to try to convince some people of that.

Alex Leith · May 21st, 2007, 02:25 PM

Given past experience, I think we can assume that any information as to whether the camera is definitely 4:2:2 or not is unlikely to be reliably accurate... even if apparently from the horses mouth!

Craig Hollenback · May 21st, 2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Lach

That might be true, but logic says it won't since they have a much more expensive model shooting 4:2:0 35mbps. That would be odd to have better specs on the lower end model.

Of course, I'm not going to complain if it happens. ;)

They claim that the newer cameras will be shooting in the 4:2:2 50mb mode as well.

Mike Marriage · May 21st, 2007, 05:21 PM

Sony often try and protect their higher end gear, but I hope they add 4:2:2 50 Mbit/s to this camera because it wouldn't really affect the sales of the largest, shoulder mount cameras.

It would just make this the best "palmcorder" ever made... on paper at least. It would also make it the weapon of choice for B camera shooting in many circumstances.

A nice small shoulder mount version would be good too! Like the HD100 line.

Zsolt Gordos · May 21st, 2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Many of us already know 4:2:0 is not bad at all but it is hard to try to convince some people of that.

Mostly people in broadcasting...

Thomas Smet · May 21st, 2007, 06:22 PM

Actually I was thinking more the people who are new to the game and insist on trusting numbers and specs only.

Greg Boston · May 21st, 2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Wasn't it true that the current XDCAM HD cameras actually down converted to 4:2:0 before the live signal was sent out SDI? I remember at one point there were a lot of threads about this. The signal was still uncompressed but the chroma sampling was reduced for whatever reason. I hope what I remember was just false information at the time.

The HDSDI specification requires 4:2:2 colorspace. If you record to disc, it has to be upsampled to 4:2:2 out the HDSDI port. The early information had us thinking the camera head was 4:2:0 and that even a live feed would still suffer the lack of chroma from the camera head. This is not true. It is indeed 4:2:2 sampling at the camera head.

As for the 50mb 4:2:2, that is a feature of the 2/3 full size camera shown at NAB. It is still my understanding that the forthcoming XDCAM EX camera will not offer that high of a data rate.

-gb-

Thomas Smet · May 21st, 2007, 11:42 PM

Ok thanks for the updated info on the XDCAM head. It was actually your posts on the XDCAM forum that mentioned that the head may be 4:2:0. After searching that whole forum no mention was ever made of it actually processing 4:2:2 in the DSP.

Greg Boston · May 22nd, 2007, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Ok thanks for the updated info on the XDCAM head. It was actually your posts on the XDCAM forum that mentioned that the head may be 4:2:0. After searching that whole forum no mention was ever made of it actually processing 4:2:2 in the DSP.

You're right Thomas. There was initial confusion about this. I didn't find out otherwise until late November. And that came from Sony's CTO. I have a powerpoint slide here somewhere that even shows that signal chain, clearly labeling it as 4:2:2. I thought I posted a correction somewhere in the XDCAM forum after finding that out.

-gb-

Gabe Strong · May 22nd, 2007, 09:06 AM

Everything I heard initially was that this camera would offer 4:2:0 colorspace with a maximum bit rate of 35mb. This seemed to fit with Sony's current crop of HD stuff, offering a "low end" (cheaper with less quality), a "medium" (higher quality and a bit more cost) and a "high end" (very expensive but with very high quality). This is kind of the model that most video manufacturers use and it would be kind of surprising to see that changed.

However, I have been hearing rumors and hints that there may be more "surprises" in store before the XDCAM EX is released. So who really knows? I will say this, if for some reason Sony DOES put in 50mb 4:2:2 colorpace.....they will have a really hard time keeping this thing in stock anywhere.

May 21st, 2007, 02:25 PM	#82
Alex Leith Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Northampton, England Posts: 500	Given past experience, I think we can assume that any information as to whether the camera is definitely 4:2:2 or not is unlikely to be reliably accurate... even if apparently from the horses mouth! __________________ Alex

April 28th, 2007, 05:16 PM	#76
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	4:2:2 isn't happening on this model. The forthcoming 2/3 camera is the only one that's going to support the higher bit rate. -gb-

April 29th, 2007, 02:06 AM	#77
Steven Bothe New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 6	HD SDI out means at least 4:2:2 with the HD SDI right?

May 21st, 2007, 02:15 PM	#81
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Wasn't it true that the current XDCAM HD cameras actually down converted to 4:2:0 before the live signal was sent out SDI? I remember at one point there were a lot of threads about this. The signal was still uncompressed but the chroma sampling was reduced for whatever reason. I hope what I remember was just false information at the time. If it was true however I wonder if SONY would limit the SDI output on this camera the same way. As to the 4:2:2 recording mode... I do think it is something that SONY could decide to do. I mean the media and camera itself could handle it no problem at all. It all comes down to how good they want to make this camera. If SONY is really trying to target this camera at HVX200 users which it pretty much is then it may make sense for them to also have the 4:2:2 mode. This would mean the camera would pretty much kill the HVX200 is almost every single aspect. HD-SDI longer recording times cheaper media. full resoultion 4:2:2 recording 1/2" chips These are all things the HVX200 does not have. If the SONY does not have the 4:2:2 mode then I'm sure there will be debates and heated arguments all over this and other forums about how the HVX200 is still better because it records 4:2:2 color right to the card. Regardless if it is better or not the focus of the argument will be there and many people may be afraid of 4:2:0. Many of us already know 4:2:0 is not bad at all but it is hard to try to convince some people of that.

May 21st, 2007, 05:21 PM	#84
Mike Marriage Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NE of London, England Posts: 788	Sony often try and protect their higher end gear, but I hope they add 4:2:2 50 Mbit/s to this camera because it wouldn't really affect the sales of the largest, shoulder mount cameras. It would just make this the best "palmcorder" ever made... on paper at least. It would also make it the weapon of choice for B camera shooting in many circumstances. A nice small shoulder mount version would be good too! Like the HD100 line.

May 21st, 2007, 06:22 PM	#86
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Actually I was thinking more the people who are new to the game and insist on trusting numbers and specs only.

May 21st, 2007, 11:42 PM	#88
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Ok thanks for the updated info on the XDCAM head. It was actually your posts on the XDCAM forum that mentioned that the head may be 4:2:0. After searching that whole forum no mention was ever made of it actually processing 4:2:2 in the DSP.

May 22nd, 2007, 09:06 AM	#90
Gabe Strong Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 814	Everything I heard initially was that this camera would offer 4:2:0 colorspace with a maximum bit rate of 35mb. This seemed to fit with Sony's current crop of HD stuff, offering a "low end" (cheaper with less quality), a "medium" (higher quality and a bit more cost) and a "high end" (very expensive but with very high quality). This is kind of the model that most video manufacturers use and it would be kind of surprising to see that changed. However, I have been hearing rumors and hints that there may be more "surprises" in store before the XDCAM EX is released. So who really knows? I will say this, if for some reason Sony DOES put in 50mb 4:2:2 colorpace.....they will have a really hard time keeping this thing in stock anywhere.