XDCAM HD - new forum?

Originally Posted by John McGinley

Considering the F330 is going to retail at $16,800 it really isn't a huge leap from some of these other cameras. How much would a HVX with enough P2 cards to equal a single XDCAM disc cost?

You're right John, and a more affordable direct storage solution would be a REAL plus. But my next question would be - Do I need the Sony $15,000 deck to play it back and get it into an editing solution with? Or can you firewire it directly into FCP directly from the camera like you could with the HVX eliminating the need for another piece of equipment? Equipment that will become obsolete when something like, say, the ZDCAM is introduced by Sony in 2009 (or whatever).

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

...If it can be easily incorporated into a simple workflow I think many people will bypass the XLH and the HVX for the XDCAM-HD solution. 120 minutes for $30 is a punch in the gut to P2

Sure is. I would consider holding off on purchasing an HVX if I can find out that the possibilities look good for an affordable Mac-based total workflow solution. Two glitches, it's not scheduled for release until June and it's not "scheduled" for release until June.

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by John McGinley

Considering the F330 is going to retail at $16,800 it really isn't a huge leap from some of these other cameras. How much would a HVX with enough P2 cards to equal a single XDCAM disc cost?

Don't forget, you get a lens with the other cameras. The retail prices that Sony is quoting don't include a lens. So the F330 is going to cost about double that price when you add in lens and batteries, etc.

Suddenly, you're miles away from the price of the HVX with P2 cards and the H1.

Just food for thought.

-gb-

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Don't forget, you get a lens with the other cameras. The retail prices that Sony is quoting don't include a lens. So the F330 is going to cost about double that price when you add in lens and batteries, etc.Suddenly, you're miles away from the price of the HVX with P2 cards and the H1.Just food for thought.

Heeeeeyyyyy HVX, welcome back to my house. Come on in and sit in MY chair. Can I offer you something to drink?

[Ash Greyson]

By the end of the summer I would suspect you could get a full set up, lens and all for $20K or less. Remember, your backups ARE your disks, in P2 or HDD world professional RELIABLE back-up gets very very expensive. We should start a new section next year for tapeless workflow horror stories... I already have heard many and have one of my own.



ash =o)

Looks like there's going to be quite a bit happening this year. I'm looking forward to seeing how everything continues to unfold (while costs decline) and our equipment options get better and better with the XDCAM HD as well as others.

[Steven Thomas]

Yes, if I could buy the F330 with lens for $15K, I'd pick it up over the HVX200.

I have a feeling things are going to get real interesting over the next couple years.

Steve

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

It really does seem to me that so far that it's shaping up to be HDV tape-based cameras on the one hand, and then a higher-end MXF-based tapeless group on the other hand (these being Panasonic P2 flash memory and Sony XDCAM optical disc).

But isn't XDCAM HD just elementary-stream MPEG2? Seems to me things are pretty well organized now and don't need to be further splintered into sub-categories based on recording formats or the type of media used. I could see a case for having some sort of price cut-off, but then what happens as prices fall over time? Perhaps for now we could say that $10K is the price limit for most of us here and have a separate "high end" category for XDCAM HD, Red, and whatever else catches people's interest.

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

Perhaps for now we could say that $10K is the price limit for most of us here and have a separate "high end" category for XDCAM HD, Red, and whatever else catches people's interest.

That's what I was thinking - like a $10k+ or $15k+ section.

[Chris Hurd]

Perhaps we should just break it down to under $10K, and over $10K. Eventually we might (hopefully) attract the audience for a $50K and higher area, but right now I see just one delineation of any significance, and that's the $10K price point.

Although I wonder how we would properly categorize the forthcoming JVC camera, the one that's HDV in the 2/3rd-inch size. It'll be well over $10K, more like the $20K range, but it's still HDV. That's why I feel somewhat prompted to keep things organized by format rather than price.

[Steve Connor]

I don't think these new XDCam HD cameras are designed to compete directly with the HVX the relationship is more like the DVX100 and the DSR 570, different markets.

Perhaps you could just replace the Z1/FX1 section with a Sony HDV section which would include the new cameras?

[Keith Wakeham]

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

We should start a new section next year for tapeless workflow horror stories... I already have heard many and have one of my own.

Way to make me feel bad ;)

Anyway, why not try and support tapeless workflows rather than horror stories. I think most people like tapeless but theirs definetly some real and valid fears with it. We can all learn from peoples horror stories of tapeless - things like the file table wasn't written or the drive crashed.

XDCAM is tapeless but I suspect its going to be fairly robust and reliable, yet it still presents the same workflow issues when reusing the discs. So I think that the direct to disk section is good, but its putting more emphasize on the capture. A section on the workflow and reliability and backup issues could be a nice benefit.

Panasonics whitepaper about smart backup is a great start and I guess this stuff could be discussed under NLE groups but I'd rather see another group that helped people through this. I plan on sharing my designs for tapeless workflow, data safety, backup and more when they are... well, you know, I get to that point.

Maybe I'm totally off the mark with people needing some workflow help with tapeless solutions. Maybe everyone but me figured it out :)

[Shannon Rawls]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

That's why I feel somewhat prompted to keep things organized by format rather than price.

But Chris...the format is "High Definition". That's why what you have now is excellent. You should just add newer "HD" cameras right here where we are.

I don't think it should be categorized by "CODEC" or "MEDIUM" because then things get squirrely. Like it is elsewhere on the web......totally confusing.

The way you have it now is sweet!

- ShannonRawls.com

[Shannon Rawls]

Originally Posted by Ash Greyson

We should start a new section next year for tapeless workflow horror stories... I already have heard many and have one of my own.

I haven't heard 'many' like you have, but I have heard ONE. Where on a reality show (or was it a las vegas fight preview coming up, i forget), they were using the big P2 camera. You know, the one that has 4 slots in it? Well, apparently the P2 cards somehow crashed and dumped a bunch of footage that was priceless and couldn't be re-created. The producer was furious and never wanted to be the 'test monkey' for tapeless acquisition in the first place, but did so because he was coerced(sp?) or was given a financial incentive or something. Anyhow, after that disaster, he went back to DIGIBETA (something he was used to) and finished the show with those type cameras.

This was the early days of P2 and I'm sure the kinks are worked out. The P2 for the HVX seems solid and reliable. But it's still kinda scarry when you're dealing with such important stuff, like movies, documentaries & reality shows. We already know the perils of tape aquisition, so having a form discussing dropouts and broken tape is worthless. But since tapless capture is new to us all, it would be cool to hear stories about problems with P2 & XDCAM from those who dare to try it first so we can learn how to avoid certain situations and do proper preventive maintenance.

- ShannonRawls.com

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Keith Wakeham

Way to make me feel bad ;)

XDCAM is tapeless but I suspect its going to be fairly robust and reliable, yet it still presents the same workflow issues when reusing the discs. )

XDCAM is VERY robust and rock-solid, I've probably worked with at least 100 cams in the past year at various broadcast houses, and have yet to experience or hear any horror stories. If it's in ENG use, it's getting the crap kicked out of it in many situations. And it works.

At Sundance Media, we use tapeless systems religiously, often using tape backup, but haven't needed the backup for at least two years that I know of. *most* of the horror stories that I know regarding tapeless relate to really cheap tapeless systems.

BTW, my vote is for Tapeless HD Recording/Acquisition or some form thereof.

[Kevin Shaw]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

I wonder how we would properly categorize the forthcoming JVC camera, the one that's HDV in the 2/3rd-inch size. It'll be well over $10K, more like the $20K range, but it's still HDV. That's why I feel somewhat prompted to keep things organized by format rather than price.

This is why categorizing by recording format or media doesn't work, because it's not what determines who's interested in the camera. I expect the $15-20K HD cameras to offer a better level of image quality than any of the current sub-$10K cameras, and if that's true it would be confusing to lump XDCAM HD with the HVX200 or JVC "super HDV" with a Sony HC1. So either just have all the HD cameras together in one big group, or let's admit that price is the significant dividing line.