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Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta
HD recording with a Super35 CMOS Sensor.


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Old November 16th, 2010, 09:35 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Dean Harrington View Post
I don't care for the back viewfinder either.
Makes me wonder who does? Why exactly do semi-pro/pro cameras have rear mounted view finders anyway?

Make it EX3ish, but removable.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 11:00 PM   #92
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A bunch of posts (not about the F3 but put here anyway) have been moved to a new thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...am-lineup.html

Remember, different topic = different thread. Thanks all,
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Old November 18th, 2010, 02:11 PM   #93
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Paul, I work at both ends of the industry - if I'm going to rent I'll rent Epic or Alexa or Phantom. If I'm going to buy, I'll buy Scarlet or 5D MIII or whatever new wave, low-cost technology takes my fancy in the coming months and that's my point. This camera is neither fish nor foul. If it offered RAW it would be another matter, but it doesn't, so it's not:)
But you are wrong sir, it does offer "RAW" in its own. It will shoot 4:4:4 Slog which is its RAW.

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Originally Posted by Erik Phairas View Post
Makes me wonder who does? Why exactly do semi-pro/pro cameras have rear mounted view finders anyway?

Make it EX3ish, but removable.
I say it again, this is clearly not designed by someone who actually uses cameras. This thing needs to be removed. Its in the way, unusable, and eye sore, it really is the one thing that could have done to make this camera better, and they didnt. All they had to do was not waste money on a crappy back end vf and add a port for a real vf or even just another HDMI port for connecting the new external VF's that work off HDMI.

I can see so many people breaking this off by getting it caught on something.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:16 PM   #94
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Giuseppe,

Yes, I saw that S-Log was mentioned. My understanding of S-log is it's a flat gamma curve, good for retaining as much dynamic range as possible, but it's not RAW - or am I misunderstanding something?

Liam.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 05:45 PM   #95
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view finder ...

I am not a fan of such types of view finders either. I wonder why they didn't add the EX3 view finder on this camera?
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Old November 18th, 2010, 08:49 PM   #96
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Clearance. The EX3 finder is quite a bit farther forward of the mount for it to work as an eyepiece for shoulder work.

You can't have eyepieces like that with a lot of PL lenses and accessories...the finder gets in the way.

I'm wondering how well something like the Redrock or Zacuto eyepieces will work with this, considering there's an HDMI output as a "spare". Then you can put one wherever you want.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 11:59 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Hall View Post
Giuseppe,

Yes, I saw that S-Log was mentioned. My understanding of S-log is it's a flat gamma curve, good for retaining as much dynamic range as possible, but it's not RAW - or am I misunderstanding something?

Liam.
Well it is not RAW otherwise it would be called a RAW format, but it does some things that is like a RAW format. It a negative. The slog is a curve that gives you your sensor a negative, its not going to react the same way a RAW file would with exposure, but it does have the same principal. You can affect the exposure and latitude better with S-log and its as close as you can get to what a RAW workflow would be for Sony cameras like this.

the LUTs will greatly help post and making sure that color timing will be correct and accurate, as well as retaining the most amount of information possible.

At that level of control we are talking about motion pictures and tv, making sure the end result is the best possible and the more accurate when matching to projectors.

Its not RAW but it does give you a great amount of control over the image vs. without using S-log.

Someone more articulate in these manors might be able to explain a bit clearer on the hows and whys, I just know how to use it haha
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Old November 19th, 2010, 12:33 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Liam Hall View Post
Giuseppe,

Yes, I saw that S-Log was mentioned. My understanding of S-log is it's a flat gamma curve, good for retaining as much dynamic range as possible, but it's not RAW - or am I misunderstanding something?

Liam.
"From April 2011, a Dual Link HD-SDI option will en- able 10bit RGB 23.98/25/29.97PsF or 10 bit 4:2:2 108050P/59.94P uncompressed external recording – ideal for integration with highest quality production workflows such as HDCAM SR. The PMW-F3K also supports selectable Gamma, four levels of Hyper- Gamma and S-Log for a wide range of shooting condi- tions from standard to wide latitude. The PMW-F3K can simultaneously record LUT (Look Up Table) in- formation onto the internal media for additional work- flow flexibility."
"HDCAM SR (two modes)
Color Sampling = 4:2:2, Bandwidth = 440 Mb/s, Compression 2.7:1, Precision = 10 bit, 1920x1080
Color Sampling = 4:4:4, Bandwidth = 880 Mb/s, Compression 4.2:1, Precision = 10 bit, 1920x1080

Read more: Specs on HDcam? - Cinematography.com

Whether it will do 4.4.4 is still questionable.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:13 AM   #99
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Whether it will do 4.4.4 is still questionable.
It's not questionable at all, its in their specs already. It WILL do 4:4:4 to the SR recorders. You just have to pay for the duallink to be upgraded to do it.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:38 AM   #100
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white paper ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Hall View Post
Giuseppe,

Yes, I saw that S-Log was mentioned. My understanding of S-log is it's a flat gamma curve, good for retaining as much dynamic range as possible, but it's not RAW - or am I misunderstanding something?

Liam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Pugliese View Post
It's not questionable at all, its in their specs already. It WILL do 4:4:4 to the SR recorders. You just have to pay for the duallink to be upgraded to do it.
maybe I'm blind ... but I didn't see it in the White Paper on the camera. One would assume that it could do 4.4.4 but assuming is no insurance against being wrong. Like I said ... might have missed that point in reading.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 05:22 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Pugliese View Post
Well it is not RAW otherwise it would be called a RAW format, but it does some things that is like a RAW format.
Then why did YOU call it RAW, when clearly it's not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giuseppe Pugliese View Post
But you are wrong sir, it does offer "RAW" in its own. It will shoot 4:4:4 Slog which is its RAW.
Also, I must be as blind as Dean, since I can only see 10bit 4:2:2 mentioned - not 4:4:4.

Anyway, that aside, does anyone know what the "upgrade" to dual link HD-SDI will encompass? Cost? Hassle?
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Old November 19th, 2010, 08:39 AM   #102
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upgrade ...

Middle next year or summer probably. Cost ... humm ... I don't think it will be as cheap as some would like. I wouldn't even be able to take a shot in the dark on that. My guess is that you will have to take it to Sony for the upgrade and they will add an element inside the camera ... just my guess. Oh, heck ... stab in the dark $500 to $700 or there abouts ... could even be $1,000.

Anybody else want to take a guess?

Dual link usually carries 4.2.2 in one link and 0.2.2. in the other so I don't understand the value if it doesn't work that way?
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:44 PM   #103
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Then why did YOU call it RAW, when clearly it's not?



Also, I must be as blind as Dean, since I can only see 10bit 4:2:2 mentioned - not 4:4:4.

Anyway, that aside, does anyone know what the "upgrade" to dual link HD-SDI will encompass? Cost? Hassle?
I said "its RAW" meaning its own version of RAW, sure its not RAW files that are 1's and 0's but its something of a negative. If you're that worried about having to have a RAW signal then you're not in the same range of wanting this camera anyway.

As for the 4:4:4 please use google and read the tons of reviews from credible sources all saying the same exact thing it supports 10bit 4:4:4 raw, including I believe sony members talking about this on video. Just because its not in the white papers you have doesn't mean it wasnt announced after the white papers came out.

I'll do some digging to get you the answer directly from a sony source if I have to.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:57 PM   #104
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This is a quote from Film & Digital Times post HOSTED on the Sony Pro site

"At the rear of the F3, there are 2 Sony SxS ExpressCard slots.
The F3 records natively onto SxS Cards at 35 Mbps in 4:2:0 8-bit
XDCAM EX format. The SxS Cards are formatted in standard
FAT file format; a 32 GB Card will record 100 minutes in highest
quality. Many users will be happy with this. But, like Oliver Twist,
many will want more. And they can have more–with the ability
to use the onboard SxS Cards as immediately editable proxies,
while simultaneously recording to a higher standard. That might
include 4:4:4 10-bit S-Log HD-SDI dual link to an SRW-1 /SRPC-
1 SRW tape recorder at visually lossless 440 and 880 Mbps or
(next year) 1 TB Solid State Memory Cards at 220 and 440 Mbps.
There are HD-SDI dual-link outputs at the rear of the F3 for
external recording (4:2:2 1080 50/59.94P normal; and RGB 1080
23.98/25/29.97PsF as an option)."

The RGB upgrade is a full 4:4:4 stream, you just have to wait for it to be available for the upgrade. There would be no point for the dual link unless it supported 4:4:4 the HD-SDI output already does 10bit 4:2:2 out standard. the Dual link is for shooting in S-Log RGB at 4:4:4 theres no other reason to have it.


Also answer to the whole RAW ordeal, pretty much what I said before, this is its "RAW":

"You’ll be able to select S-Log and
Hyper Gamma to seriously increase the dynamic range. S-Log is
Sony’s take on RAW “Digital Negatives.” The image, uncorrected,
looks pale and washed out (like a negative), but when a Look-Up
Table (LUT) is applied, shows the full dynamic range of the image,
giving you greater flexibility for color and contrast correction in
post"
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Old November 19th, 2010, 03:33 PM   #105
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I found a confirmation from Sony stating once upgraded it will support 10bit 4:4:4 out .

HD Warrior Blog Archiv SONY F3 Press Launch in London

go to the video and skip to 11mins and listen to the questions and answers.

He said it will support 4:4:4 as long as you had the upgrade, otherwise its 10bit 4:2:2 standard.
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