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Old March 23rd, 2011, 08:17 PM   #1
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10Bit S Log/Who and When

It might be time to feel out this forum for what present and future F3 owners will be advancing to S Log.

Please watch this camera tip video from Stargate Digital Productions, Hosted by Sam Nicholson ASC, and F3 provided by Sony and then respond.

Sony VideON | Thoroughbred S Log | Camera Tips

Sony F3 | Stargate Studios VFX Channel
S Log White Paper
http://www.sony.co.uk/res/attachment...7476953066.pdf


Full discloser : I work as an independent Network DP who consultants to Sony, not for.

I have been waiting for 10 bit for the masses for 11 years. It was the talk around 2000 DV EXPO where young turks of the affordable NLE caucus were bitching for 10 bit digitizers/workflows.

S-Log, while not for the timid, should be understood as to how it will enrich/expand your images. The workflow should clear to you and your clients. It is not just another filter you apply in your NLE.

For the not so timid see

S Log White Paper
http://www.sony.co.uk/res/attachment...7476953066.pdf
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 09:46 PM   #2
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Dillon View Post
It is not just another filter you apply in your NLE.

For the not so timid see

S Log White Paper
http://www.sony.co.uk/res/attachment...7476953066.pdf
I can't say I agree with the complexity level.

In the DaVinci, it's as simple as right clicking on a clip node, and applying the LUT. In FCP, there are already filters to apply the appropriate LUT to LogC Alexa footage.

It's a little bit of an adjustment for those who are used to the idea of shooting video where "what you see is what you get", but beyond that, it really kinda IS just a filter in an NLE to apply the LUT.

And if you don't have the LUT, a three way color correction filter will get you something that looks quite nice.
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Old March 24th, 2011, 07:24 AM   #3
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Nate,
My intention was to inform those that have never used Log. And I agree it is not complex, but when you are dealing with a lot of new comers to Log, I felt it best to help those who may be considering taking on the S Log/CC sessions with an educated approach. I have had many experienced, (709 DP's) calls asking what is Log and how will it help me.
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Old March 24th, 2011, 10:13 AM   #4
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Nate,
In addition, my intention is for those DP's that are new to Log. They must adjust there way of lighting and exposure to take advantage of a wider latitude.
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Old March 24th, 2011, 11:27 AM   #5
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

While we don't call it S-log, I've been shooting 4:4:4 raw 10bit Log with my Viper for years. The Sony S-log really isn't that different. I don't expect a whole lot of changes to my Viper workflow that I've used for years. And yes, I do plan to upgrade my F3.

Oh by the way, on the Viper we call it Filmstream.
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Old March 24th, 2011, 11:27 AM   #6
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Dennis,

First let me freely disclose that I am a Sony, Panasonic, Canon, JVC, Apple, and Adobe reseller (along with over 200 manufacturers).

That said, I have some insight into what customers are buying and using, and what suppliers are bringing to market to meet demand. And it is clear from the supplier side that one of the big themes at NAB next month will be 4:4:4 recording and S Log/CC sessions will be part of that theme.

I believe the F3 is going to introduce a new group of professionals to these workflows, and products like DaVinci will help make previously high-end color correction much more common place.

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Old March 24th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #7
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Dennis-Ready to absorb all this log stuff with a F3 on its way. Ready to see what NAB brings this year as well.
Thanks for sharing!
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Old March 24th, 2011, 09:56 PM   #8
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Having seen before and after s-log/4:4:4 results with a 9000PL, it was definitely one of the F3 selling points for me.

I may not take everything to a colorist every time, but I agree with the idea of creating a digital negative, that can be processed or printed (my photo background speaking) in several different ways. The bottom line for me will be recording as much information as possible in the first place.

It's a relief to hear Nate say that the one will still be able to tweak out a decent look in Color or some other program on your own system. Not all of my projects come complete with cooperative clients.

And with all the 10 bit 4:4:4 action heading to NAB, (cameras, recorders, etc) I would not be surprised to see a multitude of color correction programs or even LUTs becoming available for sale.

I think this camera is an amazing opportunity to go large budget or small and still have options for big quality.
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Old March 24th, 2011, 11:09 PM   #9
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

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Originally Posted by Chuck Fishbein View Post
It's a relief to hear Nate say that the one will still be able to tweak out a decent look in Color or some other program on your own system. Not all of my projects come complete with cooperative clients.
S-Log is simply, at the end of the day, a black point/gamma/white point modification done in camera designed to be "undone" by processing later. Adding contrast, lowering the gamma, and increasing saturation (as opposed to applying the proper LUT) will make a "normal" looking image. Color will be more than up to the task. So will FCP. All it takes is a computer and the most basic of color correction plugins. Oh, one other thing, the NLE/CC has to be able to process 10 bit video, preferably in a pretty deep bitdepth. I think they all do that these days.

Will the image be photometrically 'correct' if you wing it by the standards set forth in the Sony white paper without a proper LUT? No. But what colorists do all day long is mess with the 'proper' gamma curves provided by digital (and film) camera images, so it's really here nor there what's correct if it looks good and is 709 legal when output by your program (and that's a function of the output stage in your CC program), not necessarily the presence or absence of a proper LUT to 'decode' your image.

BTW Dennis, I'm not trying to tear your post apart, I just would like to shed some light on why nobody here should be afraid of it. If you really dig in and read the white papers, it can seem complicated, and in some ways it is. But it doesn't *have* to be to put it to good use. There will be plenty of ways to blunder through and get great images...just like Red post has been doing for 3 years now. On the other hand, it will be possible to output clipped, crappy S-Log originated material that could have been fixed easily if somebody had bothered to tweak a slider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Fishbein View Post
And with all the 10 bit 4:4:4 action heading to NAB, (cameras, recorders, etc) I would not be surprised to see a multitude of color correction programs or even LUTs becoming available for sale.
Maybe. There's already a ton. As somebody who gets paid to color, I would argue there's enough already, running the gamut from free to hundreds of thousands. Color and Resolve are tremendous options for serious folks.

Off the top of my head:

FCP 3-Way Color Corrector (free)
Colorista II ($200)
Apple Color (kinda free)
Blackmagic Davinci Resolve (effectively $3000 + recent Mac) (also goes to $50-$100K if you wish)
Irdas Speedgrade ($40K-ish)
Assimilate Scratch ($55K-ish)
Autodesk Lustre ($100K+)
Quantel Pablo ($100K+)
Filmlight ($100K+)
Mistika

You can see the landscape already has plenty of options. Way more choices than the FCP/Avid/Adobe/Vegas biggies for editing. There could be more in the $200 to $3000 range, agreed, but that's gonna take more marketplace tectonics before that happens (and I could see it happening, eventually).
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Last edited by Nate Weaver; March 25th, 2011 at 02:35 AM.
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Old March 25th, 2011, 08:54 AM   #10
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

S-Log is nothing more really than a more severe Cinegamma or Hypergamma. With S-Log as luma increases the data bit allocation decreases with less data used for highlights than lowlights.

The only issue with using a 3 way color corrector is that these operate on 3 fixed points of the gamma curve, so may give you issues with more subtle tweaks to specific parts of the curve, while a LUT or curves filter will operate across the entire curve.
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Old March 25th, 2011, 09:36 AM   #11
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Dillon View Post
It might be time to feel out this forum for what present and future F3 owners will be advancing to S Log.
Hi Dennis,
Probably a better discussion to have over a few beers, but...

For me, I think it's going to have a lot more to do with clients, budgets and expectations.

For those clients who have always worked in video / HD Video, and who basically like their DP's to do a little adjustment to the look inside the camera, and who then do little or no color correction in Post, this will be a very difficult sell. It means convincing them that in order to improve on the look of their footage (and the F3 / Nano combination already delivers some gorgeous footage) they have to commit to a more expensive recorder, higher post costs, and the time (and thus expense) of color correcting everything shot in S-Log. In the current economic climate, I figure that at most about 1/3 of my clients will be interested.

However, for those clients who came out of film, or who already budget for complete color corrects, it's going to be a lot easier sell, depending of course on recorder costs and data workflow issues.

The 'magic bullet' I'm looking for is the simple 'why you need this and it's going to be worth more than the extra money you have to spend' explanation.

I rarely work on dramatic projects any more, but in the last few weeks I've had conversations about possible new (modestly budgeted) projects with a couple of directors for whom I've shot features in the past (either in 16mm or 35mm), and should either of them go into production, an S-Log workflow would be very appropriate, and make F3 camera packages a high probability option for the shoots.
The tricky part, of course, is that back in the days of film it was pretty easy to figure out all the basic budgeting for the camera(s) and for post, while now there are so many variables depending on camera type, recording format, data rates, workflows and potential delivery streams. -- And every day the producers seem to want a whole new budget based on a differernt set of parameters.

Enough rambling for now. Hope we can have that beer soon.

Best,
Dave S
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Old March 25th, 2011, 10:38 AM   #12
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Nate,
No problem. I think we both want to raise the bar on what is possible. Your shared experiences are invaluable to all of us here including many DP's who may be considering Log.
The advisory is for those who have never used Log including the post facilities, be what they may. Once again it is in the pre production stages that one needs to get everybody on board budget and workflow wise.
If you regular clientele has been cutting your 709 material and applying simple color correction, they need to be in agreement as to what is possible and how it will be shot and passed down the line.
For example. In addition to major cable productions, I DP on a regularly scheduled network magazine program that has never used Log.
Often there will be a second or third DP who will provide material as well. Then there may be three or four editors involved, the post colorist, and 7 or more members of management plus legal.
I come to them and present an affordable 10 bit camera with Log, and detail by example how it will benefit them. They ask me, how much will it cost us? Will it cut with regular video? :) . What do I end up with?
So here is where I go into all my selling points and hope they get it, and employ me to do so.

My mission:
Collectively we need to stop this trend of 'Good Enough'. Too often many productions send their AP's out to do what we have been doing for 30 years. Give them an EX/5D and spray the sh_t out of it and hope something sticks. I have been told by a network exec that that manner has cost them more in the long run, but it still persists in his shop and others. The reality I guess.
I believe it is up to each and every one of us to provide the best we can and present it in a way that exceeds all their expectations..... And fits into their budget or better yet, saves them money

David,
Great points. Sorry for repeating many of yours. I owe you the first beer in Vegas.
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Old March 25th, 2011, 10:51 AM   #13
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Dillon View Post
My mission:
Collectively we need to stop this trend of 'Good Enough'. Too often many productions send their AP's out to do what we have been doing for 30 years. Give them an EX/5D and spray the sh_t out of it and hope something sticks. I have been told by a network exec that that manner has cost them more in the long run, but it still persists in his shop and others. The reality I guess.
Absolutely with you there Dennis, as I expect are most of the readers of this board, after all most of the people here are trying to figure out how to get the most out of their kit. The trouble is that most of those with their hands on the purse strings have become so detached from the production process that they can no longer see the wood for the trees. This one of the reasons I never embraced the DSLR trend, I figured a better way of working would soon come along.

S-Log may be a step too far for some productions and those that use it for the first time need to understand the way it works. DP's need to know how to expose and light correctly for S-Log and the post team need to understand the way it works. My fear is that S-Log could become a real cop-out for lazy or poor DP's.... "It's OK, it's S-Log, they can fix it in post".

I'm in the same boat as many here. Keen to use it where appropriate, but need to have a job that will justify the additional cost. Hopefully that will happen sooner rather than later.
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Old March 25th, 2011, 11:55 AM   #14
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Re: 10Bit S Log/Who and When

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Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post

The only issue with using a 3 way color corrector is that these operate on 3 fixed points of the gamma curve, so may give you issues with more subtle tweaks to specific parts of the curve, while a LUT or curves filter will operate across the entire curve.
You are right. You can mostly make S-Log or LogC look right with those 3 points, but it's not perfect. That what I meant when I said "blunder through".
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