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Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta
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Old April 5th, 2011, 07:51 AM   #16
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

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Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
Dan -
Thanks and its great to have your input on this forum. I hope I didn't sound rude in my earlier post. i'm still a bit confused though. Will the Gemini like the Nano, have a menu for choosing how much compression to record in or will it just record uncompressed whatever compression scheme the SDI is putting out? i.e. if the camera is not upgraded and the SDI sends out 4:2:2 that's what will be recorded?
Does that question make any sense? I'm still not clear where its decided how the Gemini will record.

Also I'm curious about the screen on the Gemini. Many of us are mounting external monitors in positions like that in your photo. Is the gemini designed to replace those monitors, and if so does it have monitoring features like waveform/vectorscope, false color, color peaking, accurate color etc. If not many will be reluctant to remove say their TVLogic 5.6" onboard for something without the feature set they rely on.

- Lenny
Dear Leonard,

No, I did not think you were rude at all, no problem.

The Gemini 4:4:4 records the video it is provided via the HD-SDI with 100% accuracy. There is no compression.

But, you can obtain compressed video, in the codec of your choice, using Apple Compressor or Adobe Media Encoder, or other software running on an external device, a laptop or desktop computer, or something more elaborate.

Our Monitor should be color accurate. It is adjusted for proper color at the factory, and we intend to provide color adjustments.

We have not promised Waveform Monitor/Vectorscope, Histograms, or False Color yet.
We will be listening to our friends requests at NAB and at other times.

We will have a 1 to 1 mode for critical focusing and you will be able to move around the portion of the image that you will see 1 to 1.

I am not certain what "Color Peaking" is, sorry.

We will be putting as many features as possible in the Gemini 4:4:4. We have built in a lot of expansion room in this unit so we can add features.

We will be adding features over time, just like we did with the nanoFlash.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 07:56 AM   #17
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

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Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale View Post
Thanks Dan, just another thought: Could there be a be a loupe type device made that would allow you to focus on the screen if you mounted the Gemini forward for shoulder mounting the camera? Perhaps the screen is a bit large for this?
Dear Brian,

We intend to build an add-on sunshade (which may not be necessary due to the high brightness of our display) and I have looked into a loupe type device.

At this time, we are not currently designing a loupe type device. We are busy in other areas.

We will be listening at NAB to those that have seen the device to determine if a loupe type device is needed. The image is 5" diagonal, thus reasonable size for close-up viewing.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 08:06 AM   #18
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dear Doug,

We are working on a custom battery that will fit to the back of the Gemini 4:4:4.

Our current plan is for a 68 Watt-Hour battery. This, of course, will be a removable battery.

With our support for wide range of input voltage, 6 to 19 Volts, we can accept a wide range of battery types.

We are also designing a solution to allow for higher voltages, up to around 32 Volts. This will be an optional accessory. This will be great for 28 Volt DC power.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 08:21 AM   #19
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

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Originally Posted by Dan Keaton View Post
We will be listening at NAB to those that have seen the device to determine if a loupe type device is needed. The image is 5" diagonal, thus reasonable size for close-up viewing.
I was thinking more about being able to focus on the monitor when you're operating with it a few inches from your eye.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 08:47 AM   #20
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dear Brian,

Thanks, we will keep that in mind.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 01:20 PM   #21
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dan,
Thanks for clarifying the recording issue. This sounds like after a 4:4:4 upgrade in the F3 that I can pick the recording quality by choosing my SDI quality in camera.

I guess I've been trying to figure out the file size comparisons between the Gemini and the Ki-Pro mini or Samurai that record directly to Pro Res and unless I've got it wrong it seems like the latter will still be significantly smaller. For my clients file size and not having to go through compressor is a major issue and I know if the Gemini offered that as well as 4:4:4 they would jump at it despite the a few K cost difference. Of course those recorders are tied to Pro Res which is only an Apple product and I don't know how much of an engineering issue that would be for you guys. I do know people are looking forward to the 10 bit offerings as an alternative to the 8 bit Nanoflash though.

"Color peaking" is a feature on most smaller on-camera monitors these days that outlines a user chosen color (often red) where the image is in sharp focus. Very helpful to the operator, though you must include controls so the user can dial in its sensitivity. An overly "active peaking function can tell you you're in focus when you aren't and is worth than useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Keaton View Post
We will be listening to our friends requests at NAB and at other times..
That's why you guys stay ahead of the game. I'm sure you'll be hearing a lot. By trying to offer a substitute on- camera monitor though be aware that you've waded into a highly competitive playground where shooters are really picky and demanding about about features and picture quality.

Thanks for your devotion to our needs.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #22
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dear Leonard,

ProRes HQ, at 220 Mbps, will be a smaller file than an uncompressed file from the Gemin 4:4:4.

The file size will be smaller and the quality will be less.

The nanoFlash is great for recording compressed images at a wide variety of bit-rates.

We fully understand that all everyone will want to use Apple Compressor or Adobe Media Encoder.

Please keep in mind that the footage has to be copied from the media, CompactFlash or SSD's to another media.

With a fast computer, one can use the uncompressed footage as the input to Apple Compressor or other software, and output the encoded files, in a codec of your client's choice to the other media, all in one step. And the transfer times are not significantly different (with a fast computer).

(Again, I know this is not for everyone.)

I understand "color peaking" now. I was familar with another term for the same thing.

I think everyone will be very pleasantly surprised by our monitor quality.

5" diagonal
800 x 480 (full pixels)
800 Nits (Cd/m2)
900 to 1 Contrast Ratio (Real)

Compare these values to the monitors that are out there now. For example, a typical monitor is 300 Nits.

Having a monitor 2.66 times as bright comes in handy at times, especially in bring sunlight.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 04:35 PM   #23
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

800 NITS is crazy bright. A lot of Steadicam monitors are in the 500 to 650 NIT range (often in combination with a transreflective layer to increase daylight viewability) although some go as high as 1000 NITS, just to give people a perspective on the brightness this screen is capable of delivering.

Peaking would make the monitor truly useable as an on camera EVF from what I can gather. Adding a software scope package to it would hit it out of the park in terms of the value proposition to camera operators.

Looking forward towards seeing a demo unit at NAB.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 04:38 PM   #24
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dan,

Just a note to make sure you haven't compromised color accuracy for brightness, I know in the past I tried a monitor that was very bright but on the coolish blue side and I was told at the time that making the color more accurate always brought the brightness down.
Just a thought.

Lenny Levy
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Old April 5th, 2011, 04:42 PM   #25
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dear Andrew,

Thank you are sharing your perspective,

Yes, 800 Nits is really bright.

We are very far along in our development of the Gemini 4:4:4, but it is certainly not finished right now.

We will try our best to add features, within our capabilities, and the significant capabilities of our hardware design.

We significantly over-designed the Gemini 4:4:4 hardware so we could add features.

However, certain features may be very difficult to add. We will do our best.

It is certainly my personal goal to make our Gemini 4:4:4 into a very useful monitor.

Just to be clear, no promises on extra monitor features yet.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 05:10 PM   #26
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

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Originally Posted by Dan Keaton View Post

Just to be clear, no promises on extra monitor features yet.
I like that. The business is out of control these days with lack of expectation management.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 05:49 PM   #27
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Hi Dan,

First off, keep up the great work.

Here is a thought: take a 2011 quad-core MacBook Pro, connect your 256GB drive and convert to Pro Res HQ and Pro Res 444(if that exists). Then, post the time it takes as part of the Gemini overview so people like Leonard can see how long this takes.

Also, take a similarly equipped i7 Windows 7 laptop and convert to Cineform in their two highest quality settings, which I am fairly certain includes 444.

I would imagine that there is enough time to convert in the field after the first 256GB drive fills up and while recording to the 2nd drive.

Here is my best idea yet ;) send me a Gemini and 256GB drive and I will test the Cineform/PC for you.

Btw, I am still amazed at the low cost of your 256GB & 512GB SSDs.

Are these SSDs made in USA, Japan or elsewhere? I ask because SxS prices skyrocketed after the Japan earthquake; so, I wonder if there will be any impact on your Gemini development.

PS With HDCAM SR tape becoming scarce and almost non-existent very soon due to Sony closing its plant in Japan, the Gemini could help many people in desperate need of the highest quality recording.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 05:56 PM   #28
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Hi Leonard,

What about using the BlackMagic Design H264 recorder Blackmagic Design: H.264 Pro Recorder

If your clients just need files to begin editing or for review, this could potentially work. Then they could relink the files; however, I don't know if it records identical timecode (it should since it can record via SDI).
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Old April 5th, 2011, 06:24 PM   #29
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dear Steve,

We are very happy with the SSD manufacturer that we have selected.

However, things may change due to the pace of technology and we want to use the best available.

Our current SSD's have been through lots of testing.

So, if we stay with this SSD, the critical memory used to build these SSD's are made in the United States. The final assembly is outside of the United States, but not in Japan.

The final testing and burn-in will be at our facility in Colorado Springs, Colorado, United States.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 07:13 PM   #30
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dan, thanks for being so responsive on these forums. It is great to have CD available, willing to listen and respond to all of our questions.

In regards to the Gemini, is there some technical reason the option to compress has been removed (or not included) as being able to output MXF via the Nanoflash (I borrow a friends for now as I was hoping the Gemini was in the works... :)) is a huge time saver in my current workflow and others I know as well.

However I am getting an F3 very soon and would love to have the 10-bit 4:4:4 of the Gemini, certain projects will just not allow the time to offload and compress via another step especially if you are a one man show or a DIT is not in the budget.

I assume there is no possibility the Gemini has some hidden ability to ouput MXF via a future firmware upgrade? I and others just do not understand the reason to not inlcude this feature... as sometimes uncompressed will be overkill and being in the field you may not be able to offload and compress to a codec via a laptop or desktop for a multitude of variables.

For the cost it will be difficult to justfiy a Nanoflash and a Gemini untill clients start really demanding the the uncompressed 10-bit 4:4:4. I guess I may just have to get use to the reality of needing the extra time to offload and compress....however the XDCAM EX codec onboard the F3 is pretty impressive with the almost noiseless images even at high gain. This could be used in those situations when uncompressed is not needed but even that may pose a limitation that will cause issues on some projects.


Thanks again for your time!
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