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Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta
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Old April 5th, 2011, 08:41 PM   #31
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Doug,
I modified my Be Boob Coco. Dremel off the curved section, and now the Coco with 2 Hirose and multi directional D tap works with the Sony batteries.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 08:54 PM   #32
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Hi Jason,

Do you currently have a need for 10bit 444 S-Log uncompressed video? Or is 10bit 422 good enough? I ask because the upgrade alone will set you back $3500 and that is enough to buy any of the small recorders including nanoFlash, KiPro Mini or Atomos. So, for those times when you need the compressed format, you can use one of these recorders rather than upgrade to 444, which by the way, the F3 technically cannot truly output 444 due to its bayer sensor. Green pixels comprise 50% while Red and Blue comprise 25% each.

I believe that the Gemini would need to cost nearly as much as the Cinedeck Extreme in order to provide both uncompressed AND compressed recordings due to the extra processing hardware.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 11:38 PM   #33
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Bodnar View Post
... In regards to the Gemini, is there some technical reason the option to compress has been removed (or not included) as being able to output MXF via the Nanoflash (I borrow a friends for now as I was hoping the Gemini was in the works... :)) is a huge time saver in my current workflow and others I know as well.

However I am getting an F3 very soon and would love to have the 10-bit 4:4:4 of the Gemini, certain projects will just not allow the time to offload and compress via another step especially if you are a one man show or a DIT is not in the budget.

I assume there is no possibility the Gemini has some hidden ability to ouput MXF via a future firmware upgrade? I and others just do not understand the reason to not inlcude this feature... as sometimes uncompressed will be overkill and being in the field you may not be able to offload and compress to a codec via a laptop or desktop for a multitude of variables.

For the cost it will be difficult to justfiy a Nanoflash and a Gemini untill clients start really demanding the the uncompressed 10-bit 4:4:4. I guess I may just have to get use to the reality of needing the extra time to offload and compress....however the XDCAM EX codec onboard the F3 is pretty impressive with the almost noiseless images even at high gain. This could be used in those situations when uncompressed is not needed but even that may pose a limitation that will cause issues on some projects.


Thanks again for your time!

Dear Jason,

First, we acknowledge that full uncompressed is not for everyone and we offer the nanoFlash to compliment the Gemini 4:4:4.

People who are using the nanoFlash with the outstanding Sony F3 are very pleased with their images.
There is a very good technical reason for this that I have discussed in other posts.

(To be brief, the very low noise images of the Sony F3 allows the nanoFlash to create stunning images since it does not have to compress the noise.)

We have tested the two workflows:

(1) Just performing a transfer of the full uncompressed footage to a fast Mac,
(2) Performing a "First Encode" from the full uncompressed footage on the SSD.

In our tests

(1) was 3X real-time (60 minutes of footage took 20 minutes) and
(2) was 2X real-time (60 minutes of footage took 30 minutes.

You times can and will be different. We used a fast Mac for these tests.

Later, as we get the Gemini 4:4:4's into the field, we will have reports of "Real World" times using a variety of Macs.

In any case, during a full shooting day, one does not need to wait until all of the footage has been shot before during a transfer or "First Encode". This could start at lunch.

Then, with proper techniques, only the footage for the second half of the day, or even less would have to be encoded.

If one waits to the end of the day to start the "First Encode" or transfer, there is a time difference, but with a reasonably fast computer (and proper disk subsystem) the difference is not that significant.

With a slow disk subsystem, and a reasonable fast computer, it may be that the "First Encode" may actually be faster than a full uncompressed transfer. This comment is not based on any tests we have done, just conjecture on my part. But I have a very extensive computing background.

Again, your mileage will vary!

Now, to directly answer your question as to why the Gemini 4:4:4 does not include all of the compression options of the nanoFlash.

The answer is size, weight, power, complexity, and time to market.

The nanoFlash performs its magic due to large part to the Sony codec module.

This would add size, weight, power and cost to the Gemini 4:4:4.

While we would port the code from the nanoFlash to the Gemini 4:4:4, it would add complexity and time to market.

We pride ourselves on building very small, very sophisticated, and very low power devices.

It is, of course, a gamble for us.

Stepping back for a minute, it may become apparent that we are attempting to promote the use of full uncomrpessed recording to a large number of users.

Of course, we feel that by producing a very low cost (compared to all other competitive products) full uncompressed recorder, many people will consider the advantages of full uncompressed images.

And there will be those that will want the compression in the recorder itself, and for those we offer the nanoFlash which is a very viable option for many Sony F3 owners, especially those that do not want to use Sony S-Log or full 4:4:4.

Just ask anyone who has recorded F3 footage on the nanoFlash.
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Old April 6th, 2011, 12:49 AM   #34
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dan, What do you mean when you say a "fast mac" .
Does this require a tower or will a laptop do.
Most people I know are working with a Macbook Pro in the field. Maybe one a few years old like me.

Lenny
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Old April 6th, 2011, 01:08 AM   #35
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Steve, great points and has me thinking... I need to do some testing once I get my F3 to see which option will work best for me but you are right in reality 90% of the time the 4:2:2 even at 8-bit will be suffcient for me especially since I have a profile that gets my look very close in camera at least with my EX1. I am very intrigued by S-LOG as I am sure others are but I can always upgrade later (especially since it is not even available yet) Plus the Nano works great with my EX1 and current workflow as well. Decisions decisions, The Gemini has the built in monitor and uncompressed 4:4:4 or close via F3.

Dan, thanks for the reply and makes perfect sense as you explained it well. I am sure I will be a happy owner of a Nano or Gemini at some point in the near future. If budget allows maybe both so both of my cameras will be recording at the best of their abilities. I am not in a huge hurry and want to see some real world testing and workflow breakdowns tested as well. Those offload and compression times on a Mac look pretty good for uncompressed footage.
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Old April 6th, 2011, 01:58 AM   #36
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Does S-log only work with uncompressed 4:4:4 or also 4:2:2 10 bit either through gemini or KiPro?
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Old April 6th, 2011, 10:17 AM   #37
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
Dan, What do you mean when you say a "fast mac" .
Does this require a tower or will a laptop do.
Most people I know are working with a Macbook Pro in the field. Maybe one a few years old like me.

Lenny
Dear Lenny,

Our "Fast Mac" is a very fast Mac, a latest and greatest Mac Pro, with fast disk drives, many cores, and lots of memory.

So, I requested a test with a much more modest MacBook Pro.

We used a "last year's model" MacBook Pro, 17", with an ExpressCard 34 eSATA adapter for a test.
This is a 2.66 Ghz model.

Connecting full uncompressed footage and then performing a "First Encode" to ProRes HQ:

10 Minutes of Footage encoded in 5 minutes.
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Old April 6th, 2011, 10:22 AM   #38
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

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Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
Does S-log only work with uncompressed 4:4:4 or also 4:2:2 10 bit either through gemini or KiPro?
Dear Lenny,

For S-Log, it is your choice if you record 4:4:4 or 4:2:2.

For S-Log, it is most important to record it in 10-bit so the Gemini 4:4:4 would work fine.

I would not use a nanoFlash to record S-Log footage, one would be better off to not record S-Log if one is recording via the nanoFlash.

But, of course, the nanoFlash will do an outstanding job recording from the F3 in non-S-Log mode.
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Old April 6th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #39
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

I thought S-Log would only work via 3G or Dual-Link SDI or does the F3 upgrade allow S-Log through its normal single link HD-SDI?
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Old April 6th, 2011, 03:06 PM   #40
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dear Steve,

We will have to check on that. I am not certain.
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Old April 6th, 2011, 08:18 PM   #41
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

"Time to market."

Welcome to the brave new world where we customers are the beta testers, and where "new features" are added alongside firmware fixes for products that may be obsolete before you even pay that credit card off.

Even though I enjoy new technology as much as the next guy, I sometimes miss the days when one only asked "what Betacam do you have?"

I'm not just picking on C-D. I love my Nano (v1.6.248) and it has done good by me.

Gotta go, I have to go do a software update on my tripod.
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Old April 7th, 2011, 04:38 AM   #42
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dear John,

When we first started shipping our nanoFlash is was a viable and useful device.

Then, over time, we added features to the firmware.

Some of these features were ones that we had promised, and others were very useful features that we had not promised. Some took quite a while to implement, such as Hot Swapping.

And in the case of the our first recorder, the Flash XDR, we have failed to deliver full uncompressed recording to CompactFlash cards, which was going to be an extra cost feature. And they may be a couple of other features for the Flash XDR that were promised that we have not delivered yet.

But, overall, our friends got the benefit of using our new technology sooner than they would have if we waited until everything was finished.

And every few months, more or less, we delivered new features. One example was an On-Screen Tally. Another was 8-Channels of audio. Another was Image Flip. Another was Image Flop (horizontal Flip).

Each new release of firmware goes through very formal and thorough testing.

This includes internal testing in our lab, internal testing of the new code approximately 48 units during heat cycling and burn-in, a private beta testing program, then a public beta testing program.

Then the new firmware is released as "Production Level".

Are we perfect? No.

But, I feel that your comment "we customers are the beta testers" does not accurately reflect what we are doing nor does it reflect our track record.

We are very happy that you love your nanoFlash.
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Old April 7th, 2011, 05:15 AM   #43
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Dillon View Post
Doug,
I modified my Be Boob Coco. Dremel off the curved section, and now the Coco with 2 Hirose and multi directional D tap works with the Sony batteries.
Dennis, that might work. Let's talk about it next week at NAB.
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Old April 7th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #44
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

4:2:2 S log only requires single link HDSDi, it is just a regular 10 bit 4:2:2 stream. I believe you will be able to choose between 4:2:2 S-log over a single SDi plus S-Log with LUT on the monitor SDI, or 4:4:4 S-Log over dual link SDi or single 3G SDi with S-Log plus LUT on the monitor SDI. That's the information I have, but things may change.
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