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Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta
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Old April 4th, 2011, 07:56 PM   #1
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Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dear Friends,

I have posted some photos of the Gemini 4:4:4 on the Sony F3 in another thread.

This will allow one to see the small size of our full uncompressed recorder.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/converge...-4-photos.html
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Old April 4th, 2011, 08:01 PM   #2
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Somebody should make a mod that loses the entire right side of the camera with that useless grip, and replaces it with a Gemini.

Underneath that plastic is just the metal camera chassis, and a few printed ribbons to connect the switches in the grip area.

Even if that cost an extra $2K in machined parts, it'd probably be worth it!
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #3
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

I actually like the grip, but I would pay $2K if someone could add a connector that would enable me to use the HDVF-C35 viewfinder I have on my F800. Looking forward to adding a Gemini to my rig this summer. If only the camera had a D-Tap.
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Old April 4th, 2011, 09:58 PM   #4
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dan, I know you've heard this before and know you suggested downgrading in post, but unless its a huge engineering hassle, I think you would sell a lot more of those if you included the option to go 10 bit 4:2:2 as well.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 12:15 AM   #5
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Leonard,

It does record 10bit 422. And with their 3D upgrade, you can record 2 10bit 422 cameras synced together (I would use it for multi-cam and A/B cameras).
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Old April 5th, 2011, 01:31 AM   #6
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Well,I just looked back at the latest press releases and I'm confused.

The Gemini seems to be billed as a 4:2:2 /4:4:4 recorder but the press release also says it only records uncompressed - doesn't that mean 4:4:4?
Is there uncompressed 4:2:2?
The Cine Technica article shows record times for 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 but they are all very large.

Granted I'm no tech though and I'm a bit confused about the difference between bits per sec and 8 or 10 bit recording. For example on the Nano can't you record at lots of bit rates/second even though they are all 4:2:2/ 8 bit. What size files can we expect for an hour of recording on a Ki-Pro or Samurai?

I know big file sizes will be a big stumbling block for my clients
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Old April 5th, 2011, 02:05 AM   #7
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Weaver View Post
Somebody should make a mod that loses the entire right side of the camera with that useless grip, and replaces it with a Gemini.
Could work if you were doing a shoulder mod and the handle was mounted on an extension out front and below the camera.as per Arri 16 SR.

Up top the Gemini looks like it may imbalance the camera when hand holding. Of course, that's not an issue when the camera is on sticks.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 02:37 AM   #8
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate Weaver View Post
Somebody should make a mod that loses the entire right side of the camera with that useless grip, and replaces it with a Gemini.

Underneath that plastic is just the metal camera chassis, and a few printed ribbons to connect the switches in the grip area.

Even if that cost an extra $2K in machined parts, it'd probably be worth it!
Dear Nate,

We are open to your idea.

For discussion purposes, wouldn't that make the LCD (which is a very nice, high resolution (for its size, 5" diagonal, 800, x 480), high brightness (800 Nits (Cd/m2), less useful?

It is very desirable to be able to view this monitor while shooting.


We did not show the Gemini on a Noga arm. I would expect some to consider using the Noga arm to position the LCD/Monitor to a location of their choosing.

The Gemini 4:4:4 weighs about one pound. I am trying to get an accurate weight.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 02:44 AM   #9
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
I actually like the grip, but I would pay $2K if someone could add a connector that would enable me to use the HDVF-C35 viewfinder I have on my F800. Looking forward to adding a Gemini to my rig this summer. If only the camera had a D-Tap.
Dear Doug,

The Gemini 4:4:4 comes with a Male 4-Pin XLR to 4-Pin Female Power cable.

We could build you a 4-Pin XLR splitter cable, or most any custom cable that you may need.

www.nanoFlash.net has a custom cable that allows the Swit battery to power both the F3 and the Gemini 4:4:4.

You may click on the following link, then click on order to see this cable.

nanoFlash.net - Batteries and Chargers

And, of course, we have D-Tap to 4-Pin Female Hirose Power cables if you have Anton Bauer or IDX power.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 02:46 AM   #10
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
Dan, I know you've heard this before and know you suggested downgrading in post, but unless its a huge engineering hassle, I think you would sell a lot more of those if you included the option to go 10 bit 4:2:2 as well.
Dear Leonard,

The Gemini 4:4:4 will record 10-Bit 4:2:2 automatically if that is what is coming in via the HD-SDI.

8-Bit 4:2:2 is also suppported as well.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 02:57 AM   #11
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard Levy View Post
Well,I just looked back at the latest press releases and I'm confused.

The Gemini seems to be billed as a 4:2:2 /4:4:4 recorder but the press release also says it only records uncompressed - doesn't that mean 4:4:4?
Is there uncompressed 4:2:2?
The Cine Technica article shows record times for 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 but they are all very large.

Granted I'm no tech though and I'm a bit confused about the difference between bits per sec and 8 or 10 bit recording. For example on the Nano can't you record at lots of bit rates/second even though they are all 4:2:2/ 8 bit. What size files can we expect for an hour of recording on a Ki-Pro or Samurai?

I know big file sizes will be a big stumbling block for my clients

Dear Leonard,

The Gemini 4:4:4 gives you the option to bring all of the quality of your camera, which may be 8-Bit or 10-Bit, 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 into you NLE or laptop.

Using Apple Compressor, or Adobe Media Encoder, or other software, you can then compress this pristine footage to whatever format your client desires.

This is a "First Encode" or "First Generation Encode", thus the same quality as would have been created in-camera, if the camera was capable of recording in your client's choice of codec.

This may not be for everyone. The nanoFlash is a very nice choice for some.

The nanoFlash continues to be a fully supported product and we expect sales to continue to be strong. We sell hundreds of these each month and expect this to continue.

The nanoFlash offers very high quality images (but not 10-Bit, nor uncompressed) and very long record times.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 02:59 AM   #12
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale View Post
Could work if you were doing a shoulder mod and the handle was mounted on an extension out front and below the camera.as per Arri 16 SR.

Up top the Gemini looks like it may imbalance the camera when hand holding. Of course, that's not an issue when the camera is on sticks.
Dear Brian,

The Gemini 4:4:4 adds about one pound of weight. It weighs about the same as some lightweight monitors.

With certain setups, this could be balanced by a battery.
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Old April 5th, 2011, 04:57 AM   #13
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Dan -
Thanks and its great to have your input on this forum. I hope I didn't sound rude in my earlier post. i'm still a bit confused though. Will the Gemini like the Nano, have a menu for choosing how much compression to record in or will it just record uncompressed whatever compression scheme the SDI is putting out? i.e. if the camera is not upgraded and the SDI sends out 4:2:2 that's what will be recorded?
Does that question make any sense? I'm still not clear where its decided how the Gemini will record.

Also I'm curious about the screen on the Gemini. Many of us are mounting external monitors in positions like that in your photo. Is the gemini designed to replace those monitors, and if so does it have monitoring features like waveform/vectorscope, false color, color peaking, accurate color etc. If not many will be reluctant to remove say their TVLogic 5.6" onboard for something without the feature set they rely on.

- Lenny
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Old April 5th, 2011, 05:06 AM   #14
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Keaton View Post
Dear Brian,

The Gemini 4:4:4 adds about one pound of weight. It weighs about the same as some lightweight monitors.

With certain setups, this could be balanced by a battery.
Thanks Dan, just another thought: Could there be a be a loupe type device made that would allow you to focus on the screen if you mounted the Gemini forward for shoulder mounting the camera? Perhaps the screen is a bit large for this?
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Old April 5th, 2011, 05:41 AM   #15
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Re: Photos of Gemini 4:4:4 on Sony F3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Keaton View Post
Dear Doug,

The Gemini 4:4:4 comes with a Male 4-Pin XLR to 4-Pin Female Power cable.

We could build you a 4-Pin XLR splitter cable, or most any custom cable that you may need.

www.nanoFlash.net has a custom cable that allows the Swit battery to power both the F3 and the Gemini 4:4:4.

You may click on the following link, then click on order to see this cable.

nanoFlash.net - Batteries and Chargers

And, of course, we have D-Tap to 4-Pin Female Hirose Power cables if you have Anton Bauer or IDX power.
Hi Dan,

I already power my Nano with your D-Tap adapter on my F800 and your XLR adapter on my other cameras. They both work great. I was just lamenting the fact that the F3 does not have a D-tap connector so it is inconvenient to have to have to supply external power from some other source besides from the camera body. Since I only use Sony U60 and U30 on my F3 and have no desire to add 3rd party batteries that have D-tap, this adds more complexity and cables than I really want. It is not the fault of the Gemini that Sony didn't have the foresight to give the F3 a D-tap connector.

FYI, I normally have my Nano with an NP-1 battery supply hanging in a custom pouch on my tripod leg so it is not on the camera. There's no reason I ever need to see it during the shoot so it can be tucked out of the way. But that won't work with the Gemini because I'll want to take advantage of that great looking monitor.

I have no doubt I'll come up with a solution once I get the Gemini. I have several mounting/powering options in mind . . . but D-tap on the F3 would have been nice.
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