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Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta
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Old October 20th, 2011, 11:12 AM   #31
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

Well if I can fit it in to my schedule you can count me in. Would be a lot of fun and I'm sure some lively discussions would be part of the fun. I have a pre-production Gemini on loan at the moment, although I'm currently in Asia so wrong part of the world.

I did a sunrise shoot with a motion control rig last weekend and we got the almost inevitable chroma clipping as the sun came over the horizon when using a stock setup with CG3. However pulling the saturation down to -35 eliminated most of the clipping on later passes, same with S-log, no clipping problems there.

Sunrise at Corfe Castle - YouTube
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Old October 20th, 2011, 05:39 PM   #32
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

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Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
For your landscape footage, wouldn't the extra 2+ stops of DR greatly help?
Sorry Steve, I almost missed your question.

Yes, I think a couple extra stops of DR would have been very helpful. The question is, can S-LOG really provide it, and do I will want to grade the three hours of good footage I shot on the trip? What I have posted at Vimeo is just the tip of the iceberg of what I acquired. So, the answer to that question depends on further testing with S-LOG. One of these days, I hope to have the time to set it up and do it right. As you know, it is not a casual thing I can just throw together in a couple of hours. I'm going to have to see the difference for myself using my PP, my scopes, and my exposure settings.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 08:51 AM   #33
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

I shot camera tests with the F3 in s-log and with the various PP and saw firsthand how the s-log retained highlight information better. Sold me hard on the viability of the camera. Enabling 422 output with simultaneous LUT'd output will be a welcome addition, it's created a fair amount of workaround for me on the current show.

For me, I'd rather work with a recorder without a screen--chunky onboards and heavy-duty arms are an irritation especially in handheld and Steadicam mode. We tried the Cinedeck and it seemed like an ill fit physically on the camera.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:52 AM   #34
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

I tried talking t the Samurai guys about making a version without a screen or just a small screen because they could never compete with a dedicated monitor for screen quality and most of us are very veryt picky about our monitors to begin with. I'm happy with my TV logic and don't need a second 5" screen cluttering up the camera . Oh well.

I think I'm waiting for the Samurai and the software that enables LUTs in 422 before considering making the jump to to sLog. Personally i would love it , but most of my clients are rush rush in post and don't want to bother.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 11:51 AM   #35
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

To answer my own question, YES the new EI S-Log will add yet another stop of DR. Amazing....
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Old October 29th, 2011, 07:21 AM   #36
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

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Yes, I think a couple extra stops of DR would have been very helpful. The question is, can S-LOG really provide it, and do I will want to grade the three hours of good footage I shot on the trip?
But imagine it you had a few custom LUTs to apply to the footage and your grading was pretty much done. At least to the point your PP would have done, minor tweaking to finish.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 11:44 AM   #37
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

That is a nice dream that sounds good on paper, but it will not give me the resutls I want for several reasons I won't bother to explain here. But if you believe that a couple of "one size fits all" LUTs, applied in post to all your footage, will achieve the results you want, then go for it. Have you actually tried it? I'd be interested to hear if you you have actually had success with that type of approach. I thiink the the key word in your post is "imagine". :-)
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Old October 29th, 2011, 12:04 PM   #38
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

If one wanted to create a common look for example on a series that has multiple DP's from various locations, capturing S LOG and having predetermined Set/Post LUTs for varied scenes based on exposure ratios(Hi/Low con), and subjective gamut parameters. I can see the need.
I have a green light to implement this on a network program, TBA. Will post as it progresses.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 12:11 PM   #39
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

I recently saw the result of a "one size fits all" LUT applied to rough cuts of my footage and it was frustrating. No bueno.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 01:55 PM   #40
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

Not having worked with Slog this is all speculative:
I imagine that if you are not using the LUT to set your exposure then it would probably bounce around like crazy when applied later.
However once the next firmware upgrade that allows a LUT to be used even with 4:2:2, it might become more useful in post. Of course you may still have color balance issues. Does the new firmware allow white balancing - I don't recall that it did.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 09:49 PM   #41
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

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That is a nice dream that sounds good on paper, but it will not give me the resutls I want for several reasons I won't bother to explain here. But if you believe that a couple of "one size fits all" LUTs, applied in post to all your footage, will achieve the results you want, then go for it. Have you actually tried it? I'd be interested to hear if you you have actually had success with that type of approach. I thiink the the key word in your post is "imagine". :-)
Doug, reread the post. I think you misinterpreted what I said to me a LUT was going to be a final grade. It just gives you an idea where you're going. A few comments are in order:

1) Everything is milky in S-log unless you have a LUT somewhere between the camera and the monitor. If you have a LUT that's close to what you want you'll have a much better idea what you're doing.

2) In a very real sense a LUT is like your picture profile. You have a half a dozen favorite PPs in your camera. You pick one that's going to be suitable for that situation. You then do a color grade from there. A LUT does not eliminate color correction or grading.

3) You'll be able to record 4.2.2 from port A with S-Log and from port B with a LUT to the monitor.

4) There is a reason that LUTs are used with Red cameras, Sony 900's, etc. when you need more out of them. The fastest turn arounds isn't the reason.

@Lenny, I think you're still stuck with 5600k and 3200k.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 10:39 PM   #42
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

Another benefit of combining S-Log and a LUT is being able to record that LUT'd image. You can create a custom LUT that looks like a simple grade and yet, still keep the extra DR of S-Log. If you want a flat image for complete manipulation in post, then just record the S-Log without a LUT. But if you want a *final* image while using S-Log, then create a custom LUT with Sony's software, download into the F3 and record the monitor output with LUT applied.

Doug, if you try the custom LUT method, then you might get your desired result of not needing to grade.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 10:50 PM   #43
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

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Doug, reread the post.
Duke, I did reread your first post and I stand by my reply.

Quote: "But imagine it you had a few custom LUTs to apply to the footage and your grading was pretty much done . . . minor tweaking to finish."

When you say "grading is pretty much done." that sure sounds to me like you expect the LUT to provide your final look. If that is not what you meant, perhaps you could have phrased it differently. I stand by my reply.

BTW, I do have an F3 with S-LOG so I am well aware of the workflow and the purpose of LUTs. Thanks for the refresher!!!
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Old October 29th, 2011, 11:00 PM   #44
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

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Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
But if you want a *final* image while using S-Log, then create a custom LUT with Sony's software, download into the F3 and record the monitor output with LUT applied.

Doug, if you try the custom LUT method, then you might get your desired result of not needing to grade.
Steve, you seem to know a lot about creating custom LUTs, so let me ask you a few questions:

1) Can Cinegammas be incorporated into a custom LUT or not?

2) Can you create a LUT that will match every single setting of a Picture Profile?

3) Can you perfectly expose simultaneously for a custom LUT and S-LOG at the same time?

4) How will zebras be effected by the custom LUT? Or in other words, how how will I determine the correct exposure for S-LOG (assuming I am not dragging around a waveform monitor) if I am viewing a LUT in the viewfinder?

5) How will I be able to set a custom white balance for the LUT while S-LOG is activated?

Thank you in advance. Your answers will save me a lot of time testing.
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Last edited by Doug Jensen; October 30th, 2011 at 05:01 PM.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 11:34 PM   #45
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Re: New Firmware Updates and New "EI S-Log"

Hi Doug,

I haven't had a chance to play around with the Sony LUT software but will do so sometime soon.

1) About cinegammas: I do know that 2 of the included LUTs are designed to replicate a Hypergamma with a grey point of 40 or 33. Also, the "P1: 709" is a very useful LUT which gives a decent S curve while still keeping the entire 13-14 stops of DR. Based off what I have seen and read about these LUTs and my personal experience with LUTs in vfx, I believe it should be possible to make custom LUTs to eliminate grading. For me, I think a simple Curves adjustment in my NLE makes the image look great, which should be simple to make into a LUT.

2) A 3D LUT only affects color; so, no ability to change detail and sharpness settings like a PP.

3) With a LUT applied, the image in the LCD changes; so, if you record from the monitor output, then exposing should be straightforward.

4) I'm not 100% sure about zebras and a LUT because my experience so far has been recording to non-LUT S-Log and I used a TVLogic for judging exposure.

I hope some of this helps :) I am not an *expert* on S-Log, but I like it so much that I am happy to help in any way including conducting tests on my own. So, keep the questions coming, and if I can't answer now, I will make a list and try to test them later this week when I get together with my friend and his F3.
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