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Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta
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Old October 28th, 2011, 03:21 AM   #1
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F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Hi,

I got my Blackmagic Ultrastudio 3D yesterday and I was eager to try out 4:4:4 capture out of my S-Log enabled F3 with it. Unfortunately after several hours of trying I haven't been able to get a 4:4:4 capture done. Maybe you could help me:

My F3 is connected to the Ultrastudio 3D via two SDI-cables on the SDI A&B ports.

Scenario 1 (System -> HQ 1920/50i, Gamma -> 1.5G YPbPr422 & Video, Ultrastudio -> 50p):
I get 1080p50 in 422 and no S-Log. That works fine.

Scenario 2 (System -> HQ 1920/25p, Gamma -> 1.5G RGB444 & S-Log, Ultrastudio -> 25p):
I get a greenish strange looking image when I set the Ultrastudio to 25p. See attachment.

Scenario 3 (System -> HQ 1920/50i, Gamma -> 3G YPbPr422 & Video, Ultrastudio -> 50p):
I get 1080p50 in 422 and no S-Log. That works fine.

Scenario 4 (System -> HQ 1920/25p, Gamma -> 3G RGB444 & S-Log, Ultrastudio -> 25p):
Black. No image. This would be my setting of choice.


I have a feeling that the Ultrastudio doesn't support any 4:4:4 streams. I looked that up in the specs but I can read everywhere that it should support 4:4:4 10bit capture. Hm. There is a setting in the system preferences for 4:4:4 but that just affects output.

Anyone?
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F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?-ultrastudiogreen.jpg  
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Old October 28th, 2011, 08:41 AM   #2
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

If you check out the tech specs here - Blackmagic Design: UltraStudio 3D Tech Specs

It indicates it supports REC 601 amd REC 709 colorspaces. No mention of RGB.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 01:59 PM   #3
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

The Colorspace has nothing to do with it.

The Ultrastudio only supports a single link 3G and I believe the F3 will have it enabled in the next firmware (I might be wrong).

I experienced the exact same thing in 2 instances when using a F3 with S-Log for the first time:
1) Using both A+B to a Cinedeck, I forgot to switch to 3G SLog.
2) With 3G SLog and just A going to a high-end monitor (Sony or Pan) that supports 3G.

The 444 in the BM specs can relate to HDMI - BM's specs aren't the most useful (I have a few of their Decklink Extreme 3D cards).

Also realize that it is designed for 3D so it might not even support 3G - it might just auto-negotiate the signal down. Or it probably needs to have its settings changed - see attached.

I also found this, "...UltraStudio 3D supports uncompressed YUV 4:2:2 and RGB 4:4:4 workflows..." but it doesn't say whether this is for inputs or outputs. Based on my BM 3D card, it might refer to output only.

Another idea: the Ultrastudio might see the 50p and know that it must use both A+B but with 25p, it thinks that it only needs to use a single SDI input.

Either way, I'd call BM support.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 02:22 PM   #4
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
The Colorspace has nothing to do with it.

The Ultrastudio only supports a single link 3G and I believe the F3 will have it enabled in the next firmware (I might be wrong).
The current firmware on the F3 supports single link 3G. In the first post the OP indicates the Ultrastudio worked with 3G with the F3 outputting YUV/4:2:2 but didn't work with the F3 outputting 3G RGB/4:4:4.

This suggests the Ultrastudio doesn't support either RGB encoding or 4:4:4 encoding but does support single link 3G YUV.

Hopefully the vendor can offer some information on the problem soon.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 02:25 PM   #5
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Medico View Post
The current firmware on the F3 supports single link 3G. In the first post the OP indicates the Ultrastudio worked with 3G with the F3 outputting YUV/4:2:2 but didn't work with the F3 outputting 3G RGB/4:4:4.
Yes. My little breakdown shows that as soon as I set the F3 to output 444, I get no or a weird signal. 422 works in 1.5G as well as in 3G with the F3.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 02:44 PM   #6
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Well the spec sheet shows support for 4:4:4 so as I posted before I suspect the problem is actually the RGB vs YUV colorspace encoding that is causing the problem.

Got my fingers crossed they will figure it out. I've been looking at one of those for capturing 4:4:4 with my F3.
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Old October 28th, 2011, 03:09 PM   #7
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

We know that the Ultrastudio doesn't support Dual-Link, but is there a setting within the BM Control Panel for 3G SDI?

What happens when you have only SDI A connected and 1080 50p set? Have you done any recording to check whether the Ultra is recording a true 50p?
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Old October 28th, 2011, 03:12 PM   #8
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kalle View Post
What happens when you have only SDI A connected and 1080 50p set? Have you done any recording to check whether the Ultra is recording a true 50p?
When the F3 is set to 1.5G 422, 50i, I get tested full 50p on the Ultrastudio when A&B are connected. When the F3 is set to 3G 422, 50i, I get tested full 50p on the Ultrastudio when just A is connected. As soon as I choose any 444 on the F3 problems arise.
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Old October 29th, 2011, 08:39 AM   #9
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

All of which quite clearly tells us that the problem is with the RGB source. You would have to tell the receiving device that the source is RGB, so unless there is a YUV/RGB switch or software button on the ultra studio, then it would be safe to assume that it does not specifically support an RGB input.
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Old November 1st, 2011, 04:35 PM   #10
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Just got a reply from Blackmagic:

Quote:
It seems that the ProRes 4444 setting doesnít allow capture from a 444 source. Iím not sure why this is, so I will have to see if I can find why this is the case.

However if you switch over the RGB 444 Uncompressed or DPX, you should see the picture correctly if you are inputting 444 RGB. Switching into these codecs should switch the UltraStudio into capturing RGB 444. The other codecs are all expecting 422.

It is worth mentioning however that itís not possible to capture 1080p50 in RGB 444. The RGB codecs will disappear from the list if you select 1080p50/60.
Just tested uncompressed RGB and DPX and I can confirm that it works! Yay! I just hope they fix the ProRes 4444 input as uncompressed is really really big in filesize!
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Old November 2nd, 2011, 07:08 PM   #11
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Maybe it doesn't have the processing power to compress to Prores 444. DPX is uncompressed so much easier to create.
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Old November 2nd, 2011, 07:12 PM   #12
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Hm, I think the codec processing is done by the CPU of the host computer. Blackmagic is looking into this.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 05:18 PM   #13
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Christoph,
How you finally got to capture RGB444 thru the US3D?
The F3 outputs RGB444 via Dual-Link only and as far as I believe, the US3D does not accept dual-link inputs... Am I right?
Can you please elaborate how's your workflow?
Are you with a Thunderbolt MBP?
Would be great to conform RGB444 to Prores to edit in FCP...
Is this possible?
Best,
H.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 05:45 PM   #14
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

The F3 can also output 4:4:4 over 3G single link SDI.
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Old November 5th, 2011, 06:54 PM   #15
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Re: F3 + Ultrastudio 3D = no 4:4:4?

Great, Chris! Glad to hear that.

I was wondering if you can capture 1080p60 thru the US3D? Any thoughts?
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