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Sony XDCAM PMW-F3 CineAlta
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Old March 16th, 2012, 12:44 AM   #31
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

Thank you Henry.

After reading the user guide, it seems to be fairly complicated. Has anyone successfully created a LUT for the F3? (the program is 4 years old so I don't know if it even works with the F3's LUT system)
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Old March 16th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #32
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

Just saw this reply to my questioning Andy Shipsides at Abel Cine after he talked about how good the LUT's were on his tutorial. Sounds like CVP is a dead end:

"Leonard, I agree that the built in LUTs are too desaturated, because they are 1D LUTs there isn't much that can be done about that. In my next blog I'll go over using CVP File Editor to create the in-camera LUTs, but they will always be relatively desaturated. So I'm also going to show creating LUTs with an external box, the HD Link Pro. The CVP File Editor has many different functions that work with the higher end F23/F35/9000 which are locked out, but it can still be used with the F3 in a simple way. :

So thus far it seems to me the current solutions are:

1- Live with desaturated LUT's if you want to bother with them at all and just treat it like film.
2 - Go with an HDLink and software for $1K + or another similar system as described in this informative link for this for using LUT's with an Alexa:
http://www.negativespaces.com/blog/2...w-options.html
3. Try the poor man's solution and adjust your monitor to either an existing LUT or sLog itself.
4. To give post an idea of what you were aiming for the only thing I can see is shooting a few moments of each set-up with standard PP settings , then switch back to sLog. In the field it would be a bit cumbersome but maybe no worse than screwing around with the monitor.

I'll probably play more with the poor man's monitor solution for the time being and will try to come up with Red and Blue adjustments that are equivalent to CC filter corrections.

Thanks for everyone's help, and Still very interested in hearing other people's experience
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Old March 16th, 2012, 05:20 PM   #33
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

Another option not mentioned is to use a monitor that supports 3D LUTs such as Eizo and Flanders Scientific.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 05:43 PM   #34
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

I have a flanders 1760 which doesn't support LUT's unfortunately. Which ones do?

Last edited by Leonard Levy; March 16th, 2012 at 06:32 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #35
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

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Another option not mentioned is to use a monitor that supports 3D LUTs such as Eizo and Flanders Scientific.
Are any of these portable, camera-mountable, monitors?
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Old March 16th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #36
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

The hdlink is $470 at b&h and the lut software is free from black magic what would you need to buy to get it up to 1k?
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Old March 16th, 2012, 10:48 PM   #37
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

Just a guess, I thought I read that you needed another $4-500 software system . If that's not necessary I like the lower cost too. I'm not familiar with HD link at all but it sounds usefull.
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Old March 17th, 2012, 04:13 PM   #38
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

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.Do you find recording the hypergamma LUT's better than just recording cinegammas? . . . You mentioned a "minimal amount of monitor tweaking". What are you tweaking ? Is it mainly the saturation ? Do you set it and leave it or tweak for individual shots with an awareness in the back of your mind that you know what's on the sLog and it doesn't matter if you bounce your monitor around a bit.
Since the Cinegammas are not available when in S-Log mode, Sony have re-purposed CG1 & CG2 as Hypergamma 33 and 40. One is for exterior use primarily and the other for more controlled lighting shots. I have also found both of them to be on the desaturated side, so the main two monitor tweaks I usually employ are saturation and black level. I've always felt even from tube camera days that if you could do minimal monitor adjustments (stressing minimal) that later in post that look could easily be replicated. This had more to do with bad viewing environments like exteriors where things tend to look washed out on any monitor, etc. I would always set my monitor up to bars in blue, set black pluge, then mark where the knobs were so that I could easily tell how far I was tweaking off of those basic settings. Usually it was just black levels. It's not a recommended process for most shots, but knowing where absolute 0 is then adjusting out from there doesn't usually present big problems later in post. Only cranking things way way out can create issues later.

On the CVP Editor, I used to build basic gamma curves with it for my original F900/3 camera and although it was arcane and akin to witchcraft to make it work, I was for the most part successful in getting some nice curves to work. Once Steve Shaw's curves (Light Illusions) were published though, I only used those for a later F900R camera. You really need to use a test saw pattern to design any camera curve. That feature is buried in the F3 maintenance menu, I haven't quite gotten the secret handshake right to access it. So far what I've been told off the record is to turn off the LCD and close it, then hold the Cancel, Menu and push thumbwheel in to get this menu up. Anyone who has figured this out, please post because if you are planning to create a CVP curve, you will need to get to the test saw to make any progress.
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Old March 17th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #39
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

Bruce,
I agree - generally if you can get your monitor to do it, then you can get that look in post as well. Hence my willingness to adjust the monitor to SLog.
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Old March 19th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #40
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

The other advantage of the HD Link is when you set your curve or LUT for teh tweaked output of the s-log you can transfer or copy that info over to your color correction system to use as a starting point.
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Old March 19th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #41
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

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Originally Posted by Nick Hiltgen View Post
The hdlink is $470 at b&h and the lut software is free from black magic what would you need to buy to get it up to 1k?
I've been looking at solutions and the HDlink with HDLink utility software (comes with the unit) does 3D LUTs and seems like the way to go, Sony's CVP Editor is out of date, does 1D LUTs and only works on a 32bit OS. I've attached the HDLink hardware and software instructions location; http://www.bhphotovideo.com/lit_files/20003.pdf



If anyone has used this setup and has any thoughts pro or con I'd like to hear them.
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Old March 19th, 2012, 12:47 PM   #42
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

I used the HDLinks on "Key & Peele" last season with the F3's (because we were shooting 422 S-log and at that time all of the outputs were s-log) and we were able to dial in most of our looks with the HDLinks.There are some definite quirks to the software and it's pretty basic but certainly if all you want to do is create a Rec709 look, it's fine for that.

For more intensive work, definitely take a look at the LiveGrade software which greatly expands the capability of the HDLink:

Pomfort - LiveGrade: Interactive Look Control via SDI

I haven't had the chance to use this on set but my DIT likes it so we will be using it for season two. You can click a checkbox to immediately enable a Rec709 LUT.
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Old March 20th, 2012, 05:35 AM   #43
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

Yeah one of the other DIT's here in town has been playing with the pomfort software and told me to check it out. I haven't had the need to yet, but the prospect of doing live grading through a 500 dollar box instead of an $$$$ truelight box is appealing. Though in all honesty most of the people that the monitors seem to be set up for are absolutely fine with a rec709 look and a lot of the DP's I've worked with are more interested in doing the intensive color grading in a controlled environment in post. But it's still a cool option to have.
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Old March 20th, 2012, 11:34 AM   #44
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Re: Monitoring S-Log color

Setting a LUT on set doesn't supercede what will happen in the color session, it does mean that the footage going to editorial and dailies will get an approximation of the final look so it's not a surprise for anyone at the end, plus there are many instances especially in TV where the DP can't attend the color session. I was fortunate to be able to make mine on my show but we weren't on a quick turnaround to air.

We are just starting to design our workflow for season two and I will report back how everything works out.
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