New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony Digital Cinema Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 / FS5

Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 / FS5
Super 35 CMOS recording 4K to XQD media cards.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 4th, 2015, 09:36 PM   #16
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,076
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

The FS100 form factor was common in it's time; I'd be shocked to see them use it again. I'd expect something more like an FS-7 form factor.

Despite my statement that it having a FF sensor would explain the 28-135, I can't see them putting a FF sensor on the "FS1" while the FS7 has a Super 35.
Mike Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 5th, 2015, 04:18 AM   #17
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 286
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Zhang View Post
Oh, so a VG900 replacement it may be then, just with much better EVFs and a proper LCD placement.
No. It will be something that fits into the FS line.
My guess is it will have much in common with the FS7.
__________________
Sony FS700R (3.10), A7S (2.00), FCPX
Sony SEL 35, 50, 18-105mm, Samyang 16 & 35mm cine
Dmitri Zigany is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 08:38 AM   #18
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,040
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Here are my crazy guesses for this thing:

I suspect that the "FS-?" will be Sony's answer to market against the Panasonic AG-DVX200. Yes, they are going to be very different types of cameras but they both might be in similar price points and both aimed at some degree of ENG work.(even though fighting big sensor focus is not fun for ENG work)

I think Sony will draw very clear and careful lines between this "FS-?" and their current FS7. The FS7 is a huge hit for Sony and they are NOT about cannibalize themselves and put unnecessary pressure on the FS7's sales numbers.

Here goes....

SENSOR:
The "FS-?" will have a FF sensor - FF and Super32 are often thought of as different markets with Super35 as the true "pro" one. Sony is also investing heavily into it's new FF lens lineup. A new full frame "FS-?" will certainly help to move more Sony FF lenses from the store shelves. It also gives the Sony 28-135mm FF Cine lens a new home.Today, this lens not as not well suited to the current FS7's S35 crop.

FRAME SIZE:
I strongly suspect that Sony will keep this a 1080/UHD camera. I'm guessing that Sony will not allow DCI-4k as to help keep pressure away from the FS7. The Panasonic DVX200 does have DCI-4k but I just don't think Sony is willing challenge that feature. They will hold stubborn on this. Also, I HOPE is uses a sensor with a bit more resolution than the A7s. The A7s only does true UHD in FF. In Super35 mode, it's got allot less than the 8 mega pixels needed for UHD. (But then again, this might be the market separation tactic that Sony wants)

FRAME RATES:
1080 will see up to 120p and UHD will have 60p. I think that Sony would rather leave UHD at 30p but I think that Panasonic will be twisting Sony's arm on this one. I think Sony might hate doing 60p on this "FS-?" but in the end they will do it.

CODEC:
1080 - The Sony "FS-?" should be similar to the very cheap Sony X70 in 1080 HD and that means 10bit, 4:2:2. Sony is focusing on 4k now and is very willing to "loosen up" on the old 1080 marketing restrictions. I'm sure internal UHD will probably be locked at 8 bit, 4:2:0 with 4:2:2 over it's HDMI port. I see no chance in Hell where internal UHD will be anything more than this. I'm sure this will also be a long GOP only and no intra-frame options.

CONNECTIONS:
I'm betting we will see the usual 3G SDI for 1080 and HDMI 2.0 for UHD 60p.

SLOG-2:
I think Sony will want this camera to be limited to 12 stops of dynamic range. The Panasonic DVX200 and all the other sub $5k players do 12 stops and I think Sony will be happy to just match it. SLOG-3 and more than 12 stops of DR will be the solid domain of the current FS7 and I don't think Sony is willing to add more DR to this lower model. Plus, you really need 10bit anyway to normalize SLOG-3.

If this cameras has these features and is in the $5000 range, I'm totally getting one. (Hope my wife is not reading!) I suspect,..no, I KNOW that it's going to be a FANTASTIC low light performer.

Last edited by Cliff Totten; September 6th, 2015 at 01:12 PM.
Cliff Totten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 04:46 PM   #19
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

There are three most likely calls for what the front end will be. First is using same s35 sensor as the FS7 - which I feel a bit unlikely, would make it difficult to differentiate from the FS7.

Next two most obvious would be to use either of the front ends from the A7R ii OR the new RX10/100, either combined with video oriented back end. Is it confirmed it will be "E" mount? I don't see that in the Sony tease, only the rumour sites?

If true, if it IS E mount, it points most heavily to the first of those scenarios, the full frame sensor from the A7R ii with a video centric body. Personally, I can see room for both. A full frame camera with interchangeable lenses, and a camera based on the new RX10 sensor and lens, but both made far more video friendly and with full broadcast I-frame only codec etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
I suspect that the "FS-?" will be Sony's answer to market against the Panasonic AG-DVX200.
Yes - I really find it strange why Panasonic announce a product so long before it's availability to actually buy. It would seem to give their competitors chance to best tweak their own product launches, and for that matter tweak the specifications and prices of what they're launching to compete?

In that respect I'd think something based on the RX10 chipset (with built in zoom lens) was a more direct competitor to the DVX200, but I'd be more inclined to guess it's going to be the full frame model. Who knows - we may get both at the same time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
Yes, they are going to be very different types of cameras but they both might be in similar price points and both aimed at some degree of ENG work.(even though fighting big sensor focus is not fun for ENG work).
Careful - what you are saying in the last sentence is ONLY true *assuming the same f stop*. Which may not be at all true.

Compare 2/3" with full frame, and the latter I believe is very roughly 16x the area of the former. On a like for like comparison, it may therefore be expected to be about 4 stops more sensitive. (Because of the larger photosites.) So assuming all else equal, then for an f2 lens on 2/3", you can expect identical performance to a f8 lens on the FF sensor, of 4x the focal length. Identical low light performance, identical depth of field. Work it through and even the size/weight of the lenses are likely to be very similar.

Large sensors CAN mean shallow depth of field, but ONLY if used with fast lenses.
David Heath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 07:58 PM   #20
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 286
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
Is it confirmed it will be "E" mount? I don't see that in the Sony tease, only the rumour sites?
Well, it's confirmed that it's a FS-series camera. So far all FS cameras have been E-Mount so I think that's about the safest bet regarding this camera.

I also don't think that the AG-DVX200 is the competition, that's a fixed lens ENG/event camera. Sony has their own cameras in this segment fighting that battle. The competition here is mostly the C100mkII (and the Black Magic cameras). While the FS7 fights the C300 (and soon mkII) at a significantly lower price the FS??? will come at a rather similar price as the C100mkII, which means it will have to beat it in features.
__________________
Sony FS700R (3.10), A7S (2.00), FCPX
Sony SEL 35, 50, 18-105mm, Samyang 16 & 35mm cine
Dmitri Zigany is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2015, 09:30 AM   #21
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 740
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Here are my guesses

Sony PXW-FS5 4K XDCAM XAVC
No Grip extension Handle
Some of the menus grayed out
Super 35mm Single-Chip Exmor CMOS
No loupe on LCD

XAVC-L QFHD 50
3840 x 2160/59.94p, 50p, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p
XAVC-L 35
1920 x 1080/59.94p, 50p, 59.94i, 50i, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p
XAVC-L QFHD MPEG-4 H.264/AVC
59.94p/50p mode: VBR, maximum bit rate 150 Mb/s
29.97p/23.98p/25p mode: VBR, maximum bit rate 100 Mb/s

XAVC-L HD 50 MPEG-4 H.264/AVC
VBR, maximum bit rate 50 Mb/s

MPEG-2 Long GOP
1920 x 1080/59.94i, 50i, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25p 1280 x 720/59.94p, 50p, 29.97p, 23.98p, 25
MPEG-2 Long GOP
CBR, maximum bit rate 50 Mbps, MPEG-2 422P@HL

Audio Input
2 x 3-pin XLR
Line/mic/mic +48
Mic Reference: -40. -50. -60 dBu

SDI Output
2 x BNC HD/3G-SDI
SMTPE292M/424M/425M

HDMI 2.0
1 x Type A

USB
USB device, miniB

Headphone
1 x Stereo mini jack
-16 dBu 16 Ω

Remote
Stereo mini jack (Φ2.5 mm)
Brian Rhodes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2015, 09:49 AM   #22
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 2,963
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

I expect 8 bit 4:2:0 only in the XAVC-L QFHD mode. And the lower bitrate option has to be 60mbps. You'll have an option of 60mbps, 100mbps for framerates up to 30p and 150mbps for 50p or 60p. No 4:2:2 option in 4K except out the HDMI.

Also, it may be full frame, but be aware of weird crop factors if they choose this route. If it's the same Super35 sensor, expect all the framerates and crop factors to be normal, but no RAW options whatsoever.
__________________
I wait for the day cost-efficient global shutter 60fps capable CMOS sensors emerge for use on major manufacturers' cameras. (Sony, Canon, etc.) Rolling Shutters are a plague.
Jack Zhang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2015, 12:01 PM   #23
Slash Rules!
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,723
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Am I missing something, or is UHD so close to 4K that the differences are insignificant (literally a few hundred pixels)? This is not like 720p and 1080p; you're talking one being 95% or so as large as the other. Even if you had to scale up to real 4K for delivery, would you even notice?
Josh Bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2015, 01:43 PM   #24
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Posts: 2,963
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

You crop away the extra pixels for Cinema 4K to "Broadcast" 4K. A 16:9 safe essentially. Most broadcast will be 3840 sourced anyways, only if you need to deliver to Digital Cinema will 4096 matter.
__________________
I wait for the day cost-efficient global shutter 60fps capable CMOS sensors emerge for use on major manufacturers' cameras. (Sony, Canon, etc.) Rolling Shutters are a plague.
Jack Zhang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2015, 03:31 PM   #25
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 265
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Alexa's older non-4k resolution has been upscaled drastically for 4k projection with no visible artifacts. Not comparing Alexa to this new cam but an UHD image does not need "as much" stretching
Roshdi Alkadri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2015, 04:23 PM   #26
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,699
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bass View Post
Am I missing something, or is UHD so close to 4K that the differences are insignificant (literally a few hundred pixels)? This is not like 720p and 1080p; you're talking one being 95% or so as large as the other. Even if you had to scale up to real 4K for delivery, would you even notice?
Two things - when you talk of "UHD" I think you actually mean QFHD (3840x2160, "quad full HD")?

UHD is defined as an umbrella term, defined by the CES as referring to a system with a resolution of at least 3840x2160, so can be used to refer to 4K UHD and 8K UHD etc - in other words "better than normal HD". QFHD uniquely refers to 3840x2160.

Both QFHD and "cinema 4K" have a pixel height of 2160. The difference (as you imply) is solely in width - 4096 for 4k, and 3840 for QFHD. So yes, a few hundred pixels in one sense, but it means 4K is a wider aspect ratio than QFHD.

Converting QFHD to 4K means cropping the image and then rescaling up - yes, possible, but it's generally better to avoid any rescaling if possible. Shooting true 4K (4096x2160) and outputting QFHD is far better - a simple crop horizontally and no rescale. So if uncertain which aspect ratio you want to end up with (or you may want cinema and TV versions), it's more desirable to originate 4K and crop to QFHD than the other way round.
David Heath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 7th, 2015, 10:23 PM   #27
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 265
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
Two things - when you talk of "UHD" I think you actually mean QFHD (3840x2160, "quad full HD")?

UHD is defined as an umbrella term, defined by the CES as referring to a system with a resolution of at least 3840x2160, so can be used to refer to 4K UHD and 8K UHD etc - in other words "better than normal HD". QFHD uniquely refers to 3840x2160.

Both QFHD and "cinema 4K" have a pixel height of 2160. The difference (as you imply) is solely in width - 4096 for 4k, and 3840 for QFHD. So yes, a few hundred pixels in one sense, but it means 4K is a wider aspect ratio than QFHD.

Converting QFHD to 4K means cropping the image and then rescaling up - yes, possible, but it's generally better to avoid any rescaling if possible. Shooting true 4K (4096x2160) and outputting QFHD is far better - a simple crop horizontally and no rescale. So if uncertain which aspect ratio you want to end up with (or you may want cinema and TV versions), it's more desirable to originate 4K and crop to QFHD than the other way round.
Yes, a slight change of aspect ratio for sure. Resolution wise, there isn't a huge difference between QFHD vs DCI 4K. We're not up-scaling 2k or 2.8k for that matter to full DCI 4K but instead enlarging a few hundred pixels, not as drastic.

You're right though, starting with a full raster DCI 4K will always be better taking into consideration that we're actually finishing in 4K.
Roshdi Alkadri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2015, 12:33 AM   #28
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,076
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Can we hope it supports SD cards? I've finally gotten a surplus of SD cards in 32 and 64GB... it'd be nice if I didn't have to start over.

Oh, and F970 batteries. I have years worth of 970 batteries.
Mike Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2015, 12:53 AM   #29
Slash Rules!
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,723
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

Thanks. But in real world practical terms, if you, say, had a cam that only shot QFHD and client wanted their final delivery in "real" 4K, so you had to upscale, would the image quality suffer noticeably or only to pixel peepers?
Josh Bass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 8th, 2015, 04:17 AM   #30
Major Player
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 422
Re: New Sony E-mount video cam for IBC

So the new camera sits between the cheaper FS700 and the more expensive FS7? I predict it will be called the FS70.

But this speculation belongs in the Area51 section, not the Industry News section. It won't be "news" until we see the first official announcements and spec sheets. Remind me, when does IBC start?
__________________
Steam Age Pictures - videos in aid of railway preservation societies.
Mark Fry is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony Digital Cinema Camera Systems > Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 / FS5

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:01 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network