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Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 / FS5
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 12:50 PM   #16
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

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Originally Posted by Nate Haustein View Post
This doesn't have anything to do with AUTO knee settings or something like that, does it?

I haven't seen this same behavior yet in my UHD footage. It definitely breaks up on movement, and creates sort of strange horizontal 'lines' in the picture, but at 100mbps, I was prepared for that when I bought it. Attached photo is mid whip-pan, obviously terrible in my living room, but shows how the XAVC-L breaks up when stressed.
I watched another sample with banding in the blown highlights and I think the auto knee was 100% to blame for that. Not sure it would affect the shadow areas like in this sample would it? Wish I understood all the options and setting available in the PP menus... feel like I know just enough to be dangerous
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 12:57 PM   #17
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

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No change with manual knee... but interesting everything gets a lot better if I switch to SLOG3... Edge artefacts disappear completely. Unfortunately, SLOG3 grades HORRIBLY in 8bit... :-(
hmmm, totally guessing maybe one of you would have more info.

If its ok in SLOG but bad in other gamma settings could it be an issue with noise removal ? the camera does remove noise except in LOG correct? I have seen some really messed up footage from bad noise removal attempts in post.

Also there have been people saying they have no issue with an external recorder? I know you really shouldn't get much if any improvement (still compressed 8 bit isn't it?) I really couldn't see any difference external to ProRes or internal on my FS100
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 01:26 PM   #18
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

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Did you download my clip? I had a good deal of underexposed out of focus background and did not have the issues.
I did – that you for sharing. To see the edge-smearing problem there needs to be at least a little bit of movement in frame. Would you mind trying again with a little movement?

I'm also seeing the same effect (although the noise is less) when viewed externally (PIX-E5H)... I can't find the speed drive for it, so I haven't tried recording, but I don't see why it would get any different when I hit record on the PIX-E5H

:-( :-( :-(
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 03:38 PM   #19
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

I used a slider for this one... should have cleaned the track but it will work 10000iso (I think its more like 5000-6400iso according to my Sekonic light meter but thats a topic for latter :) )

Download the h264 file here 320MB
http://TheSBimage.com/2015/UHDfs5test13.zip

first 30 seconds is direct from camera
next 30 edited to look like what I feel the scene looked like
the last 30 is the lifted shadow look I see on video all the time
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FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??-screen-shot-2015-12-23-3.53.33-pm.jpg  
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 06:05 PM   #20
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Thanks Ray,

I'm downloading the file now.

So here's my (very quick and rough) test... it does demonstrate the problem.

SLOG3 / SLOG2 / ITU work fine. All other profiles show the blocking. Noise is better when recorded externally, but the issue is not fixed by recording to an external recorder.

I've uploaded the prores file to Vimeo. Needs to be watched at very least in HD to see the problem properly.

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Old December 23rd, 2015, 06:23 PM   #21
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Wow! Ray, yours looks pretty good. I can see a little hint of blocking in the top edge of the keyboard as the slider does a little grind ;-) (44 seconds). I think it might be vertical movement that the camera has a problem with.

It reminds me of the quality you used to get when mismatching the interlaced version of AVCHD on a progressive signal (or vice-versa).
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Old December 23rd, 2015, 07:06 PM   #22
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

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Originally Posted by Alex Leith View Post
Thanks Ray,

I'm downloading the file now.

So here's my (very quick and rough) test... it does demonstrate the problem.

SLOG3 / SLOG2 / ITU work fine. All other profiles show the blocking. Noise is better when recorded externally, but the issue is not fixed by recording to an external recorder.

I've uploaded the prores file to Vimeo. Needs to be watched at very least in HD to see the problem properly.

Sony FS5 - UHD Blocky Noise Test (External Recording) on Vimeo
The best example of the issue I have seen, I went back and just used a fluid head panning nice and smooth up and down and yep, I have it clear as day. Now at lower iso I don't see it so I figured it is what it is.... the fact that it is not showing up on the LOG footage gives me hope it can be fixed via firmware.

Someone on the FS5 Facebook page asked about the lag in UHD, I assumed they had OSS on or confused rolling shutter with lag... your video makes me think its this same issue.

**The last video I posted was a REC709 profile, maybe that the difference
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Old December 24th, 2015, 04:53 AM   #23
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

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Originally Posted by Ray Lee View Post
The best example of the issue I have seen, I went back and just used a fluid head panning nice and smooth up and down and yep, I have it clear as day. Now at lower iso I don't see it so I figured it is what it is.... the fact that it is not showing up on the LOG footage gives me hope it can be fixed via firmware.
I really hope it can be fixed.

I think I feel pretty disappointed that I can see this at 3200ISO. And if I'm looking hard it does show up at 1600ISO too... And I can even see hints of it at 800ISO if I'm pixel peeping.

It seems to be when recording UHD (both internally and externally over HDMI) in any of the cine profiles, vertical movements on (even slightly) underexposed edges with some contrast (worse on out-of-focus areas). The problem does not show up in LOG (although there are other issues with dealing with LOG in an 8bit signal).
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Old December 24th, 2015, 07:56 AM   #24
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Uggg,...I'm three weeks away from buying my FS5 and this problem is making me feel nervous and queezy about it.

I'm hoping to see more samples out there soon. If this was an internal codec only problem, maybe I could deal with that as I intend to shoot with a PIX E5 allot. However, if this problem exists before the codec gets it than we are out of luck.

Oh man......
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Old December 24th, 2015, 01:24 PM   #25
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

I have both the FS5 and the FS7. I love both of them. The 5 is the perfect Bcam to the FS7.

I have made a few tests with the FS5 and FS7 side by side in UHD, and if exposed correctly they look identical.

I have not been able to reproduce the noisy edges others are reporting, I am not saying it is not real. I have just not seen it in my footage yet. So I think it is limited to high ISO somewhat shaky cam, possible a bit under exposed. I like so far to rate the FS5 at 1200 to 1600 in Slog (I use a light meter or an Odyssey with scopes to be exact in exposure when getting used to a camera, then I just use the histogram and zebra once I know how to expose) and 1000 in CINEgammas, it gets noisy from 3200 and up, but this can be toned down in post. For real low light I just use my A7s.

On slight glitch I have found in UHD FS5 footage is that in FCPX and in CatalystBrowse the footage on my Macs gets clipped at 100ire. This does not happen with the HD footage, so I hope this is just a meta tag in the footage that needs to be tweaked by Sony, I noticed this after I updated to 1.10 FW. It may have been there in 1.00 as well. But I am only now getting to testing the UHD and comparing to the FS7.

So I can just now say that everything I have shot so far in HD and UHD looks great and grades well for me anyway. I loved my C100 but IMHO this tiny Sony is far more usable and the codecs are far superior. The Vari ND and DigitalZoom are outstanding features.

Merry Christmas to everyone, don't eat too much, now I am off to drink some Glögg with the family.
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Old December 24th, 2015, 02:58 PM   #26
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Okay, this is likely not a codec issue now that I've seen the latest video but an internal processing issue. Remember, the processors that process the incoming data from the sensor are based on DSLR designs, (low power ASICs) so any image processing will not have enough power compared to a specialized high power FPGA that the FS7 has. This is likely down to the processor is just too weak to do image processing at standard gammas, but somehow has enough power to process S-Log and pass that through no problem?

Might want to wait for the RAW update before getting any hopes up. That might be the saving grace of the camera.

Edit: Got a message from a friend saying that it's likely a poorly implemented noise reduction algorithm in the processors. Try turning Crispening to -99 or turning the Detail section of a picture profile off. (if the option is there in the picture profiles, or turn off the equivalent that controls noise reduction)
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Old December 24th, 2015, 03:39 PM   #27
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

REC709 also has no issues, and I really tried to find them
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Old December 24th, 2015, 05:03 PM   #28
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

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Originally Posted by Jack Zhang View Post
Got a message from a friend saying that it's likely a poorly implemented noise reduction algorithm in the processors. Try turning Crispening to -99 or turning the Detail section of a picture profile off. (if the option is there in the picture profiles, or turn off the equivalent that controls noise reduction)
Unfortunately the sharpening controls aren't as detailed as the FS7... Turning off the detail or turning the crispening down to 0 (that's as low as it goes) doesn't seem to make any noticeable difference.
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Old December 24th, 2015, 05:22 PM   #29
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Crippled firmware options... not sounding good. Looks like the only way to bypass the noise reduction is to use S-Log.

Unfortunately this is a bug in the hardware that the firmware cannot fix unless noise reduction is entirely turned off. A new revision of the ASICs with better noise reduction algorithms is required to solve the problem on standard gamma.
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Old December 24th, 2015, 05:26 PM   #30
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

I haven't tested this myself, but someone just commented on my Vimeo clip to say that they were seeing the problem at all of the following (and above) ISO settings:

Gamma - ISO
Standard - 2500
Still - 2000
Cine1 - 2000
Cine2 - 1600
Cine3 - 2500
Cine4 - 2500
ITU709 - 2500
ITU709 (800%) - 8000
SLOG2 - 8000
SLOG3 - 8000
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