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Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 / FS5
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 02:03 PM   #46
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Re: FS5 file please

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Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post
Yeah, that's great. That's exactly the kind of experience the individal had on the project I shot when he copied over the MXF files out of the folder structure and then when we went to edit the project the next week, there was no audio of any kind.

So that's great that it works for you, until it doesn't. Again, what is the harm of keeping the structure of the card intact vs the possibility of ruining an entire shoot?
Wow! What .mxf file type were you using? It certainly couldn't have been Sony? What camera writes audio and video files seperately? My experience comes from 20 years of Sony cameras so I can't say anything about others.

I can also tell you that when I copy the clips, I do a CRC verify too with TeraCopy. Which I strongly recommend for people copying even entire folder structures. The last thing I can say is that I usually keep the original cards on the shelf until after the project is delivered. I have yet to ever go back to any for a recopy. I keep the cards not because I want the metafiles, I keep them in case I need to grab those clips again in an emergency.

There is nothing wrong with copying the entire folder, that's totally cool, I'm just saying I don't do it and to this date, I have never missed those metafiles. I have also never missed any metafiles from a Shogun, Ninja or Pix E5 either. (Because they don't write them to begin with)

Hell, I'm not knocking anybody here. Whatever workflow gives you kick ass videos is all you need....I'm all for you!

I'm still wondering what is actually in those XAVC-S/L, AVCHD and XDCAM metadata files....

Hmmm......
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 02:22 PM   #47
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Re: FS5 file please

That's Panasonic P2. It's the most costly rookie mistake possible and you can lose your job as a DIT if you make that mistake.

And I know you're gonna say "Your fault for choosing Panasonic..."

It's really bad practice regardless if you think it's right. Just cause Sony's done the same file storage method (audio/video all in one file) for years, doesn't mean it's a general practice that you can use on other file systems. I guarantee you that's how the DIT copied only the files in the "VIDEO" folder under Panasonic P2 and screwed himself over with no audio.

I did it in my first P2 shoot. I still regret not having camera originals of my first P2 shoot to this day, but from then on, I copied everything. The next shoots I shot on P2 which I copied everything now natively open in Premiere and bypasses ProRes and Raylight completely.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 03:44 PM   #48
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Re: FS5 file please

Well? I'm not preaching that it's "good practice"...lol

I'm only saying I have done it a GAZILLION times and have never had a problem....not even once. I'm also NOT trying to convince others to do it that way too. What's the worst that could happen? I need some obscure meta file because something that has always worked fine before suddenly needs that info? If that happens, I guess I'd have to pull back the original card and get that data. No big deal, if that's the worst editing problem I ever face in my life, I'd be a happy camper.

And if I ever need ProRes meta files or meta data,...I'm totally screwed because non of my external recorders have that for ProRes....oh man, I'm starting to get nervous about that. Maybe Atomos and Video Devices need to start writing XAVC-style meta files next to the video files with their recorders...I dunno,...just for the heck of it. ;-)

To be totally honest, Over all the years I have heavily used, D8, Mini DV, HDV, AVCHD, NXCAM, XDCAM EX, XAVC-S and XAVC-L, ProRes, Avid DNXHD and even edited .mp4 junk off cell phones. Never once in my life have I ever been messed up by missing metadata. I have seen corrupt files but never any problems with missing metadata.

In Sony Vegas Pro, you can build your project with content from a 100 different file locations. You can then do a "save as" and pick the option to copy (and combine) all the content to a new folder for further editing. I have done this many times. This of course will ruin the original XAVC folder structure....but have no fear, you will continue editing just fine.

Anybody actually know what is actually in those meta files? I'll poke around in them tonight.

P2? I'm sure it's great but I cant say a word about it. I'm a Sony guy and Sony files contain both audio and video.

CT

P.S. Yes, I realize this is blasphemy talk to some people up here. ;-)

Last edited by Cliff Totten; January 22nd, 2016 at 04:42 PM.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 05:51 PM   #49
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Re: FS5 file please

I use Vegas, and it honestly is the definition of "stupid easy" for directly using singular files... Until you get to Panasonic P2, which it needs something called "Raylight."

This is a caution to not build up a habit based on experiences with "user-friendly NLEs." If you're familar with one NLE, the import procedure in a different NLE could be completely different and thus will stump you if you don't learn the basics. This is what separates "YouTubers" from Post House editors.

I tried explaining why Mythbusters was in 50i. It's because the post house is in Australia and their facilities are entirely genlocked to 50i. A YouTuber would be like "Well, it's file based, why can't they edit 60i?" *facepalm* Cause the rest of the facility is 50i and they need to make sure everything is 50i so the workflow works and you get an episode every week. (No, Mythbusters is not 60i, it's 50i output converted to 60i for US consumption.)
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 07:40 PM   #50
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Re: FS5 file please

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Was that an insult? If so you are basically saying all post production people should lay back, relax, miss deadlines, and just chill... Not follow a unified system proven to be efficient and instead laze about all day. YouTube is this way, and it's good for amateurs, but if you enter a post house not following the rules, you will be fired.

Even though I linked a FCP7 video, the point still stands: BACKUP EVERYTHING.
I never intended to insult you or anyone else.
It was just an observation and I apologise for even letting you think for a second that it could be an insult.
I concur that copying everything is a best practise to avoid stupid surprises.
But, what I'm trying to say is that it is not always the end of the world if you don't. You more or less 'paniced' because someone only shared the files, but not the structure. Since the shared files work and the absense of metadata apperently didn't affect the content of the video files it is not always doom and gloom.
It is 'just' a fail-safe method to copy everything.
P2, XDCAM and Red files definitely need it.

And yes, even editors need to relax now and then ;-)
But I'm not sure where I suggested to lay back, chill and miss deadlines?
Eventhough I can be a rebel, I don't miss deadlines. Delivered 3 brand new promos today, so my client can show them alongside their machines on a trade show next week.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 07:48 PM   #51
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Re: FS5 file please

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what I'm trying to say is that it is not always the end of the world if you don't. You more or less 'paniced' because someone only shared the files, but not the structure. Since the shared files work and the absense of metadata apperently didn't affect the content of the video files it is not always doom and gloom.
Is it not the end of the world? Yes.
Is it frustrating as hell to fix? OMG Yes.
Is it entirely avoidable? Also Yes!

Sony formats are more forgiving, but just keep in mind just grabbing everything never hurts anyone, and in fact makes post production so much easier.
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Old January 22nd, 2016, 09:00 PM   #52
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Re: FS5 file please

Speaking from a Sony point of view, what in the world could happen?

The biggest problem is the copy process itself and if the CRC matches, you got the fully 100% editable video. If that video gives you problems, that means there is something wrong with the ORIGINAL on the card, in which case, the clip is corrupt and are likely screwed. Yup,.. meta files cant correct that id the media clip itself is bad.

Since Sony XAVC files are fully independent, what "horror" could happen if the meta files weren't there? Answer? = nothing.

So what did we learn here?

1.) Sony XAVC files contain audio and video, are completely independent and don't need metadata or meta files to playback. (Just like everyday ProRes or other common file types)

2.) It's true, metadata and meta files are good for something so why not save them? It's more professional anyway. That stuff exists for some reason, right?

3.) Save entire folders just for the hell of it but don't worry if you don't. You either have the media clip or don't.

4.) Whatever you do,(folder or file) use a copy app (like TeraCopy) that does a full CRC verify at the end of the copy process.

What more is there? That's a Sony thing...I dunno about P2. I don't doubt that you guys have seen scary stuff with P2. Oh,...Vegas and Premiere CC both work great with single XAVC files.

Wow, maybe this is a hotter topic than I originally knew? We got some really passionate reactions here!

As a very long time Sony guy, I thank God I have no meta file horror stories to tell!!

CT
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 05:00 AM   #53
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Re: FS5 file please

Bottomline is that it takes less time to copy an entire card then it takes to select individual files, the only thing you can gain is the risk that one day you forget to select a videofile or end up using the files in another NLE that does require additional data in order to work.

Quote:
Save entire folders just for the hell of it but don't worry if you don't. You either have the media clip or don't.
This can be the case in your particular situation but it's important to not use this as a general rule because it's not always correct, to give you one example, my sony cx730 splits longer continuous files into smaller parts, if I copy only the videofiles from the card and import them into Edius I loose half a second of audio at the end of each segment when I add them on the timeline, if I copy and import the entire structure of the card I have the same problem, only when I use playmemories to import I get one big file without audioloss.

If I only would copy the video data like you do and then format the card this half second audio in every segment in a continuous recording is gone forever and unrecoverable which shows how important the entire folder structure is because playmemories uses additional non video files that are stored on the card as well as reference to rebuild the missing audio part.

And Jack, I know you don't like to be insulted but then also stop referring to people that don't exactly follow post production house rules as "youtubers" that don't care about the basics. Everyone that deviates from "the rules" does it at their own risk but as long as you are aware about it and as long as it does not influence your own way of working, like in Cliff''s case, then it's fine. I only see no reason for name calling and I"m sure you can agree to that.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 07:28 AM   #54
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Re: FS5 file please

Sorry Noa. I only find the generation gap frustrating cause there's people out there that handle a FS700 with a kit lens in a single hand selfie style and they find that "edgy." No. That camera was $6000 back in the day and it just goes against all proper camera operation rules to hold it like a selfie camera. What's next? a selfie stick for the FS5?
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 07:42 AM   #55
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Re: FS5 file please

So everybody that has another opinion then you about how to hold his camera while he shoots is a youtube amateur? Is it you who defines the standards on what a "professional" is these days? Let me guess, you have delivered to a production house before which automatically makes you a pro because you follow their rules, am I right?
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 07:58 AM   #56
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Re: FS5 file please

Yup, for AVCHD and XDCAM EX, you are certainly need to use Play Memories and XDCAM Browser to merge the splits together, there is no way around that.

I suppose, in the end, the only thing that matters is the result of your end product. If you are a golf player with a "bad" swing but you keep winning tournaments? Or a quarterback with bad technique that keeps throwing 4 or 5 touchdown passes a game?

In the very end, if you create a damn good video, nobody gives a crap about what gear you used or how you built it. Yknow? Your final result speaks very loudly for itself.

"Wow, that's the most amazing video I have EVER seen!.,..but I think you used the wrong gear and used the wrong techniques to make it"

YouTube or Vimeo? I dunno man, I have seen guys do amazing, world class quality work on Vimeo. It's funny, I have seen work from nice production houses with F55 and others from "solo" guys on the street with A7's and honestly, they can EASILY look just a good.

Jack is right, if you work in a big media company like I do, (20 years there in IT department, not production) workflow and procedures are literally VITAL to make sure people do things right and not screw up their coworkers. There can be several dozen people in a global production chain. One guy screws up and puts the others through Hell. The camera guy screws up his exposure of a shot and makes the colorist pull all his hair out....and a million other scenarios. I get it. I know it. I have seen it a billion times in 20 years. Yes, you are right about this, Jack.

For my little weekend solo work? I shoot it, edit it, grade it, master it, and get paid...all by myself. I do everything "my" way and I affect only me.

Investigating today what is actually in those XAVC metafiles......

CT
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 08:07 AM   #57
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Re: FS5 file please

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Sorry Noa. I only find the generation gap frustrating cause there's people out there that handle a FS700 with a kit lens in a single hand selfie style and they find that "edgy." No. That camera was $6000 back in the day and it just goes against all proper camera operation rules to hold it like a selfie camera. What's next? a selfie stick for the FS5?
"Proper"?...."rules"?

Videos can be "art" and "art" is not "proper" and has no "rules".

Relax dude, you are taking the way people do things WAY too seriously. If somebody want's to throw an FS5 on a selfie stick....LET THEM!

Why do you care soooo much about "HOW" people get their videos? In the end, it only matters if it's good....and at even that, you are only 1 judge out of 8 billion judges around the world.

Damn....lol

Last edited by Cliff Totten; January 23rd, 2016 at 09:48 AM.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 08:13 AM   #58
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Re: FS5 file please

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I shoot it, edit it, grade it, master it, and get paid...all by myself. I do everything "my" way and I affect only me.
And that makes you by definition a professional, you get paid to do a job and do it right, no matter what your standards are or what workflow you have, you might argue about having a job on the side makes you an "amateur" again compared to someone who does it full time but it does not automatically make you a "I don't care anout anything youtube generation shooter" just because you don't play along with the big boys, it was not my intention to derail this thread but I hate it when people talk down on anyone that doesn't follow the rulebook, it is in fact the ones that think outside the box that eventually will be remembered and that might as well be someone putting a fs5 on a selfie stick.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 08:40 AM   #59
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Re: FS5 file please

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And that makes you by definition a professional, you get paid to do a job and do it right, no matter what your standards are or what workflow you have, you might argue about having a job on the side makes you an "amateur" again compared to someone who does it full time but it does not automatically make you a "I don't care anout anything youtube generation shooter" just because you don't play along with the big boys, it was not my intention to derail this thread but I hate it when people talk down on anyone that doesn't follow the rulebook, it is in fact the ones that think outside the box that eventually will be remembered and that might as well be someone putting a fs5 on a selfie stick.
+1

To make things even worse: I already made a selfie with an A7s on a MoVI. Just because I could :-p
Okay, I didn't use the shot, but boy, that was an expensive selfiestick ;-)

If everyone would stick to the rules, there would never be progress.
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Old January 23rd, 2016, 01:10 PM   #60
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Re: FS5 file please

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Investigating today what is actually in those XAVC metafiles......

CT
I don't have the answer at all -- but this is something I was wondering about... Most of my shoots lately with the FS7 we've been adjusting PP settings to get a look we like (and that matches/ intercuts well with an A7s for which we also tweak the PPs) - so we don't really use the metadata for anything since we are matching looks in-camera.

But... On one FS7 shoot for a different client they wanted everything shot in s-Log3 -- and they said that they were able to use the metadata from the way we had the camera/outputs set up to immediately create in their NLE the same color/exposure look we were monitoring on set. Does anyone know --Is this metadata part of the same recorded file that holds picture/sound, or is it in a linked metadata file?
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