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Old October 26th, 2017, 09:42 AM   #16
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Dempsey View Post
I noticed you will deliver on dvd. DON'T
dvd will make the lighting much worse and really negatively impact the way they view your work.
I drew the line last season. Simply saying that the video options are Blu-ray and downloaded Hidef file both 1080p and 720p versions
The dvd format which was introduced in 1994 is no longer available due to it's inability to properly display modern video on the screens people have in 2017.
dvd is like looking through a very dirty window where everything is fuzzy and colors are muted which generally looks smudged.
Many would watch the video on their phones and tablets which don't have any kind of disc capabilities. Thus downloading is the way for most people.
Sales have been unaffected and I feel much better not having my work brutalized by dvd's low resolution.
Wow "noticed you will deliver on dvd. DON'T" I'm not sure if this is an artists advice or coming from someone who does not understand consumer usage and good business practices but I can tell you DVDs are not dead. Blu-Ray never caught on the way it should have. Ironically, some of the same consumers who skipped Blu-Ray when they went HD are now hooking that same DVD player up to their new 4K TV.

In my business I deliver products my clients want. I do not dictate to the client.


"Sales have been unaffected and I feel much better not having my work brutalized by dvd's low resolution" I can deliver in any format or tech my clients need. The last time I authored DVDs (last year) I made over $20,000.00 on that gig. Finished DVDs were the only format delivered. I would be more than happy to be brutalized like that again tomorrow.

New tech comes on quickly, old consumer hardware dies slowly.

Kind Regards,

Steve
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Old October 26th, 2017, 10:40 AM   #17
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

My business is set almost exclusively in theatre where we do the production. I always sig reading these topics, because my responsibility is for the production, and tempering the individual components is my role.

First thing - the lighting for that show, as detailed in the images is very good. It is categorically NOT terrible, and if I was the lighting designer, who probably spent many weeks designing sourcing, focussing and programming the show - having the work categorised as terrible is an insult, and clearly not an appropriate word.

In the theatre world, there is no rule, guideline or insistence that faces must be white. Indeed, since the 1920s, it has been common practice to use colour to set mood - it is drama, after all. The American Lighting Designer who's techniques have been studied and developed over many years, Stanley McCandless set into place the concept of the perfect lighting angle being 45 degrees either side of the centre line, ideally looking down at 45 degrees, and having a cooler colour on ones side (blue) and warmer on the other (pink). The wardrobe department consult with lighting at a very early stage, because the lighting impacts on the costume, and some costume choices won't work with the wrong lighting. This is all planned before the show arrives at the theatre.

There is one vital question that needs to be put to the director. Is the show being lit for the audience, or the video. Doing both compromises both!

If you contact an professional LD, or have a good amateur one for an amateur show, it is not something you can then change when a video person turns up on the day. It's common for the lighting programming to be done through the night when the place is empty, because it takes time. If the video people are present during the programming and supply the LD with a monitor, then it can be used to check the cameras, which are terrible at dealing with colour, can at least cope. If you had spent time preparing for a shoot, selecting the correct camera, organising the position it will be in, making sure audio and power were made available, and practicing those tricky shots with the cast late at night, you would be furious if on the day, somebody moved a piece of large scenery right in front of your camera position, or cut the scene you practiced and inserted a new one you'd not seen before - yet, time and time again, video people swan in and demand, rarely even ask for, changes to be made. I've even had them turn up after the audience are coming in, and ask for these changes that late.

If a director tells me the camera is more important EARLY in production, then we set everything to be camera friendly, even if to the audience it looks odd. On the day is just not on. However - this happens so much nowadays because LED lighting is sweeping through theatre at a speedy rate.

For the first time, lighting designers can light the stage with solid bright monochromatic blue. In the past, the only deep blue (Congo 181) stopped 99% of the light, so a blue stage would be almost impossible. Now it's easy and looks stunning. The cameras, especially Sony's, cannot deal with this at all. All shades of pink - as in Blue added to Red are just pink to the camera, but not the eye. Solid blue looks out of focus, and red can be very sparkly. These are deficiencies in the camera and very little can be done to fix it, because LED lighting is not continuous - red light contains NO blue or green - doing to with tungsten and gels produces gentler curves, LED just vanishes at a specific frequency.

There is NO white balance possible in theatres because even if they put a state up that is tungsten white (3000K) that is not what is used in the scenes. Personally, we tend to set 3000, or 3200 on all cameras and that's close enough. We rarely use a blue CT, as in 5000K or above because it tends to emphasise the predominance of the blue - it's bright enough before, so why emphasise it. Theatre is not TV, faces might well be meant to be pink, or blue, or if the show is Wicked, green!

Lighting Designers will usually be happy with making compromises to their work if it's done when they are at that stage - but expect extreme resistance at the last minute. It is NOT possible, despite what you hear, to change hundreds of cues without doing them individually and then updating them. On my lighting desks, it is possible to go into the patch and make global reduction is brightness, but it is NOT possible with colour mixing.

The idea to add green just doesn't fly. adding green in RGB, RGBW, RGBWA fixtures is unpredictable, and if there are many hundreds of cues, it's not possible. Going behind the LDs back and asking the director is also going to produce dug in heels. This should have been done during the planning phases, nowhere near the theatre.

It really is like asking your cameraman to underexpose every shot by 2 stops. It's crude, ineffective and mechanical. If your non technical director came to you, the cameraman and asked you to do this as a blanket instruction how would you feel.

Remember that in the theatre AND video world, you stand by your visible work. If it says Lighting design - John Smith, and the lighting is horrible because you, the cameraman who isn't even in the programme demanded the lovingly created states are changed for perhaps just one show - is that really on.

I work with big name lighting designers a lot - and many are close friends, and there is no way I'd pass on a last minute request from a cameraman annoyed at the colour choices. Indeed, the professional designers have a very strong union and wouldn't stand for it - you pay them to do their job.

TV lighting designers are absolutely different. This is such a common question, and the lighting people always get the blame.

I'll say it again - those photos are not remotely terrible!
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Old October 26th, 2017, 11:28 AM   #18
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

I agree Paul. All my hobby is theatre shoots and I do not mention the lighting as that is my job to record what is presented. There are big differences in camera performance and that is why I normally use 4 cameras to not only have different framing of the stage but different technology for the lighting and exposure. Older 3 chip Sony , newer 1/3 and 1" Sony and the GH5 Panasonic as they all have different responses. For most of my Sony's I set WB at indoor preset as with LED lights it is pointless to white balance for any scene as it changes by scene with LED lights deliberately to match the mood. In a scene a purple dress can be anywhere from blue to red on the cameras !!! My wife and I try to remember the colour and that is how I have got far more interested in Resolve !!!

As to delivery DVD is what is needed by most a few Bluray. I will move to HDR of the full stage as an archive though.
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Old October 26th, 2017, 11:43 AM   #19
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

Most of my clients specify that they want full HD recording quality, then they specify delivery on a DVD. I bought a DVD burner years ago, and to date, not one client has asked for one! I deliver on USB sticks whenever I can, but so strange nobody actually seems to want real HD? One client recently asked if I could shoot in 4K. I said, well I could, but what would he be playing it on ...... No guesses?

Lighting is what I started doing in the seventies, video and audio came later. It still annoys me that people seem to genuinely believe lighting is applied almost randomly, when it's in my experience, well planned no matter the budget. Video, sadly, is unplanned in theatres, with many in my experience arriving totally green with no idea what is going on, or without even knowing the theatre's layout.
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Old October 26th, 2017, 11:55 AM   #20
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

Most of my clients specify that they want full HD recording quality, then they specify delivery on a DVD. I bought a DVD burner years ago, and to date, not one client has asked for one! I deliver on USB sticks whenever I can, but so strange nobody actually seems to want real HD? One client recently asked if I could shoot in 4K. I said, well I could, but what would he be playing it on ...... No guesses?

Lighting is what I started doing in the seventies, video and audio came later. It still annoys me that people seem to genuinely believe lighting is applied almost randomly, when it's in my experience, well planned no matter the budget. Video, sadly, is unplanned in theatres, with many in my experience arriving totally green with no idea what is going on, or without even knowing the theatre's layout.
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Old October 26th, 2017, 12:05 PM   #21
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

I am laughing because I figured a post like that was coming from Paul. He is correct and I agree with him. He always knows what he is talking about. Over the years I have placed several posts in the audio section that sounded almost the same except they were about video guys showing up 30 minutes before one of my shows kicks off and demands an audio feed from my A1. It is probably NOT going to happen! If you need cooperation from all of the specialists it takes to pull off a show then be there when you should be there.

With that said it is a big world out there and the size and scope of a "show" varies. I would not ask a LD to change his color mix after extensive programing either. But I stand behind my suggestion that LEDs can be mixed away from their extreme blue with some green to avoid the extreme effect of the blue. I think it is a valid statement even if it may apply mostly to smaller events where changes can be made (with proper planning) and not effect hundreds of cues. It does work. Not everyone on this forum works on shows where, unfortunately, we sometimes are up for 24 hours straight before the kick off.

Kind Regards,

Steve
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Old October 26th, 2017, 02:04 PM   #22
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Digges View Post
Wow "noticed you will deliver on dvd. DON'T" I'm not sure if this is an artists advice or coming from someone who does not understand consumer usage and good business practices but I can tell you DVDs are not dead. Blu-Ray never caught on the way it should have. Ironically, some of the same consumers who skipped Blu-Ray when they went HD are now hooking that same DVD player up to their new 4K TV.

In my business I deliver products my clients want. I do not dictate to the client.


"Sales have been unaffected and I feel much better not having my work brutalized by dvd's low resolution" I can deliver in any format or tech my clients need. The last time I authored DVDs (last year) I made over $20,000.00 on that gig. Finished DVDs were the only format delivered. I would be more than happy to be brutalized like that again tomorrow.

New tech comes on quickly, old consumer hardware dies slowly.

Kind Regards,

Steve
Well the op is starting a business thus must put his best foot forward and dvd delivery is not going to garner a reputation for quality work no matter how good everything else is.
btw I'm not appreciative of the rudeness of your tone re my post. but I suppose given that I don't understand consumer usage and good business practices I may also have misunderstood .
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Old October 26th, 2017, 02:29 PM   #23
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Dempsey View Post
Well the op is starting a business thus must put his best foot forward and dvd delivery is not going to garner a reputation for quality work no matter how good everything else is.
btw I'm not appreciative of the rudeness of your tone re my post. but I suppose given that I don't understand consumer usage and good business practices I may also have misunderstood .
Is it possible to make menus with links, similar to a DVD, if you deliver files for download or on memory sticks?
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Old October 26th, 2017, 02:57 PM   #24
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

Bruce,

Yes my reply was a little salty. I won't apologise for it but I will explain. I read your own strongly worded reply to the OP as saying "DON"T", you also said you "draw lines with clients". To me, that is bad advice and bad business. You stated you are happier "not seeing your work brutalised by DVD". To me that implied artist in the arrogant sense of the term.

I joined this forum in 2002. In that time I have seen more guys than I can possibly remember come around here when starting out in this business. Most of them are gone and did not make it. In my OPINION, because of my experience watching other men/women I personally know, that failed, they failed because of the business side of their operation. It was not the quality of the shooting that failed them. Content is NOT king if you do not know how to run a customer service centered business. Anyone who places unreasonable demands on clients will eventually fail.

When a client calls me and says "can you do this" my answer is always yes. Therefor my clients are loyal. I have heard many horror stories from some of them about what it was like to try and do business with other so called video professionals. It blows my mind. But it is OK. Guys like me pick up the pieces at our higher rates.

So when I hear someone telling a new guy to not serve his clients needs I sometimes get on my snarky box with a bullhorn. The quality of a professional video someone charged money to make needs to meet a professional standard. The professionalism with which they operated in the process will determine their own future in this business.

Steve
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Old October 26th, 2017, 07:01 PM   #25
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

I too go way back on the forum and add that to a previous 40yr career in broadcasting.

Sorry but the dvd format of 480p is dead whether you want to agree or not.

The clients depend on us to tell them what they need and continuing to foist that ridiculously crappy dvd on them is irresponsible. Just explain to them how they can get nice beautiful clear video of their productions. They have the gear to play it and expect the video we provide to be at least as good as what they watch on tv. So imagine how disappointed they are when they watch a dvd of their performance.. "What's wrong with that video" they ask out loud. They just don't know what to ask for so they say dvd
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Old October 26th, 2017, 07:31 PM   #26
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

I see you point but a good DVD, played back through an upscaling player to a HD TV is very good and close to Bluray. I can tell the difference between my DVD and Bluray played back through the same system but at least my wife needs to have the differences pointed out. Detail in large areas of colour etc. Until file based delivery has good menus like DVD or Bluray then it is like giving someone a high quality VHS tape. They then have to fast forward realtime to find the spot they like or note the time on their player where they want to watch or show a visitor. For those bothered about copying, a file is easy to copy and edit too. Also there are users who find it difficult to deal with files. Those that find email a challenge. It is easy to put a disc in a player. To use a file one needs a modern TV with USB or card slot or a PC of some sort. The file of course has to be delivered some how. Download ( good internet access ) or hardware like SD card or USB drive. No nice archive package with sleeve etc that I know is valued by the users. I feel the package and menu structure are important and will keep me with DVD and Bluray until something equivalent appears.
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Old October 27th, 2017, 05:06 AM   #27
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

I have been filming and editing since 1983 and 90% of our current work over the last few years has been filming weddings and school productions in the UK.

I would never give our few commercial clients their end product on dvd, but when it comes to weddings and schools, that is a totally different market. BluRay has never been big in the UK and by far the most accessible and universally available replay format is still DVD. There is nothing that approaches it for convenience and the fact that just about everyone has a dvd player somewhere.

As a producer, I film in 4k and HD and it is always frustrating to supply a dvd knowing that the quality is so much less than I could supply. Our weddings are always delivered on both DVD and in HD on a usb stick, but I am still surprised at the number of clients whose tvs will not recognise a usb stick. When we visit our clients to show them our work, we take a portable drive with about 50 weddings on, a usb stick with a couple more and a number of dvds just in case. Frequently, the only way they can view is from dvd. This week I visited a potential client who had a non usb tv and they commented on how sharp the image was whilst watching from dvd. As has been said, upscaling to a modern tv can look very good and it is also worth bearing in mind that a very large number of tv channels are broadcasting programmes in a quality that is nowhere near what I see from upscaled dvd, but people are used to seeing lower quality.

Most domestic users are viewing high quality by downloading or Netflix etc, but downloading a 2 hour wedding video or school production on most UK broadband is not really practical, so dvd stays as a viable, cheap and popular alternative. There is no viable universal alternative for small businesses like ours working with domestic consumers. As the months and years move on, tv viewing has changed enormously with less and less people buying dvd players as they can now watch their favourite films and programmes through any number of streaming and catchup services. This has meant a gradual reduction in the dvd take up from our school productions without any easily saleable alternative. Our wedding clients though always opt for the option of dvds with their package to enable them to share it more easily with family and friends and we would consider it a failing of our service if we no longer offered it. The other positive side of supplying a dvd is that the client has something feely touchy in a nice package to show for their money.

If someone can let me know how I can supply up to 2 hours of 4K content to all my domestic clients that they can instantly share with everyone including Gran and Grandad, I'll be glad to hear it :-)

Roger
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Old October 27th, 2017, 04:28 PM   #28
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

I think it's good stuff really - My current role in productions is either production manager, company manager or something similar, and I seem to spend my time trying to balance the needs of all the different participants, who all proclaim fairness and balance, and then try to nobble me to swing my decision to their specialism. Sound have what we term "quiet time" - it;s specific time built into the production when it's quiet so they can do their fine tuning, without people shouting or using power tools. Lights need darkness - and every time it's their time and it goes dark, the others yell "I can't see". The one I'm preparing now has 3D video. This means screens, alignment time each day, and worse still - a pressganged member of the crew to keep it going, and oddly, nobody wants to do video. I quite understand that somebody who specialises in shooting video naturally believes their discipline is higher up the importance tree, but people do need to realise that simple assumptions on how easy it is to change things on the spur of the moment might not actually be practical, and people aren't just being awkward. In theatres, the problem is really that video is always last minute as it's never incorporated into the planning - if it is, things go much better. Video people do turn up and request things. Last week, during the afternoon before the first show, lights and sound were talking about it. Are we doing a video for this one? No idea. If we are, whats the betting they stroll in just before we take our first break all day - our one hour where we can do food? Yep - they all said, and they were right. Sound had predicted the request for audio, and had the cables plugged in, just in case. Lighting had cleared away a space in the followspot box, on the centre line, with a perfect view of the stage. Cue the video people arriving - two of them. The crew were just about to go and do food, but I stayed behind and let them break. I showed them the ladder that had been left down for them. They looked up. They looked at the pile of boxes and bags, and said they wouldn't use the followspot box as "they weren't insured". They started to set up. I pointed out that it was quite likely members of the public would walk in front. It will be fine, they said. I waited for the request for sound, but didn't offer it after the slap down with the ladder. I went for food. We came back early after 45 mins - this would be about 6.30, our first break since starting work at 9am on rehearsal. We need a sound feed. (no please). Fine I said, here you are - 2 XLRs left and right output from the desk. We played a track, they set the level, and then they started letting the audience in. At the interval, they complained the level had gone up. It had - during the first half, the audience were joining in and whooping and clapping, so we pushed the levels to get the music over the noise - their level went up, and the sound op really had his hands full. 140 lighting cues, up to ten per track, sound calling out 30 secs, to run, 10 secs to run - or whatever was needed during the track so stage management could cue fly cues that needed standbys - he had 6 radio mics to balance too - so he was a busy man. Too busy to notice that the feed to the video was creeping up in level. At the end, he got grumpy comments about how HE'D ruined the sound by not monitoring it. He patiently told the video guy that he was being paid to provide sound for the audience and the cast. The audio feed he provided to the video people was a courtesy, and free. If they wished to have it monitored and balanced for them, then they should have brought a sound op of their own. Next time, they might find the desk doesn't have any spare outputs.

It's a team effort, and is planned properly - with the exception of the video. My email details and phone number are always available on request, yet I have only ever had one phone call from a video business asking in advance if they could do this, or have that - once since 1984!

If I do video work in other people's theatres I always contact them and ask if things are possible, and usually they are.

Thinking back, the funniest (from my perspective) was one show where a video crew arrived with no notice, and 20 minutes in, we had a UV scene - the one where the stage goes black, the UV lights make lions, tigers, fish and ghosts appear, controlled on sticks, ropes and held in the hands of black clad actors. Looks brilliant. Half way through the scene, the video camera guy turned on his camera floodlight - revealing all the actors, and spoiling the thing for 500 kids! In the interval, I gave him a real bollocking - and told him if he wrecked the one in the second half, he would be out, and I'd make sure his company never got another commision from us. The production company get a report from me about each show, and usually all is fine in them. This one contained something like "The video company ruined the UV scene by turning on a light and revealing the cast and the magic urn trick to the audience". I never saw that company used again.

Sadly, we have come to live with bad video attitudes - they're rarely members of the team, they never ask the right questions and hate taking advice.

I mentioned they didn't want to use the followspot box. In the second half, they had to move because about 20 people walked in late and stood at the back to watch - and refused to move out of the cameras way. We did tell them.......

There are of course decent and professional video people who do theatre shows. The sad thing is that we don't see them very often.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 02:09 PM   #29
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

Gentleman,

It looks like I help create some spirited discussions from my original post. I thank you all for your input.

Paul, I need to apologize for my use of the word "terrible" in my title. I should have made it clear I was referring to the terrible video result from my camera. The local theater company I work with is composed of many talented and hard working people. The set designer does a fantastic job with the set, costumes and make-up. I believe this is very evident from the wide angle shots in my original post. I know lighting plays an important role as part of the performance. What I'm working on with my limited experience is to capture as much high quality video as possible.

I've learned so much by doing these plays during the past year and a half. My filming and editing skills are greatly improved. I'm much more efficient and faster. I'm definitely not making much money at it as I agreed with the director just to earn proceeds from DVD sales. I know they are not in it for the money either. They just hope to make enough money per show to finance the next one. (I know the company's director as she worked at my film school (as well as being a former Radio City Music Hall Rocket)). And I feel part of their theater family. I know my ability to earn good money will came later.

In the past I made at least one full rehearsal. I'll go to the next one and try different camera settings to see what may work best.

I've included below a highlight reel of "The Music Man" performance I filmed last year. This one didn't have as much blue light as the one I just did but it presented it own challenges which I learned from.

Thanks again for all your great feedback.

John

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Old October 28th, 2017, 02:50 PM   #30
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Re: How do I get around terrible theatre/theater lighting?

It's fine - just something that always sends me off on one! Here's a picture from about 3 years ago - taken from a gopro sitting centre stage, with everything lit in blue - blue LED washes, blue LED effects stuff and not a scrap of white or any other colour, and this scene had about ten lighting cues shifting the blue around the stage. The BBC's Sony's couldn't cope with this at all. Oddly, the Gopro camera wasn't too unhappy at all. The Lighting Designer would have not changed these cues for any reason I suspect because they took over an hour to do for just a few lines of dialogue with one person and a puppet!
http://www.limelight.org.uk/blue.png
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