Steadicam JR vs. Glidecam 2000 (opinions please!)

Prech Marton · May 15th, 2006, 07:17 AM

"Both gimbals rotate."

Imho this is false.
JR gimbals doesn't rotate when you boom your arm.
But GC does rotate a little.
Just look the design of both gimbals.

Charles Papert · May 15th, 2006, 07:23 AM

OK, please enlighten me--I don't see any mechanical reason why the GC gimbal would rotate with elevation, unless you are factoring in erratic hand movement. By "rotate", we are talking about the pan bearing, right?

Looking back, I think I see a confusion--I thought perhaps you were saying that the JR gimbal doesn't rotate in general.

My contention here is not that both rotate on booming--but I would still maintain that NEITHER should rotate if the boom is properly executed. By "properly", I mean that the elbow rises with the hand, so that the angle of the wrist is maintained.

Prech Marton · May 15th, 2006, 07:30 AM

"By "rotate", we are talking about the pan bearing, right?"
No, rotating around all 3 axis.

"you were saying that the JR gimbal doesn't rotate in general."
JR also rotate of course, but the footsteps are more visible than in GC.

Mikko Wilson · May 15th, 2006, 08:57 AM

Beacuse of the design of the GC gimble it is possible to move ("rotate") the handle up around the CG to take out 'bounce'. This is done by twisting the wrist - definatly not the proper operating as described by Charles. This is the same twist that is one of the fundemental problems with the Glidecam type rigs in handheld mode.

If you want, you can hold the JR gimble sideways and have a similar effect, again by sacreficing comfort (and risking injuring your wrist)

Held properly, no gimble will dempen any displacement, horizontally or vertically. The idea of the gimble is to isolate angluar motion, so the camera doesn't rotate when you do.

- Mikko

Prech Marton · May 15th, 2006, 09:01 AM

"If you want, you can hold the JR gimble sideways and have a similar effect"

I dont want to test it, because of the cheap plastic gimbal design.
What if i broke it? My GL2 wasn't so cheap...

Ben Winter · May 15th, 2006, 12:15 PM

There's my Steadicam JR for sale in the classifieds thread if anyone wants it.

Mikko Wilson · May 15th, 2006, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prech Marton

"If you want, you can hold the JR gimble sideways and have a similar effect"

I dont want to test it, because of the cheap plastic gimbal design.
What if i broke it? My GL2 wasn't so cheap...

..my wrist isn't cheap either. My point was that though you *can* do this with a Glidecam, you arn't supposed to beacuse it's bad for your hand. - That's why the JR doesn't facilitate for it with as much (wasted) clearance.

- Mikko

Charles Papert · May 15th, 2006, 07:53 PM

Thanks Mikko for getting to the heart of the matter. As he noted, the gimbal is there to provide isolation in the three angular axes: pan, tilt and roll. The three spatial axes (forward/back, side to side and up and down) are less critical to the stable effect of the photography and are controlled by the operator's arm. In theory, booming up and down should have no effect on the angular axes (if there is stiction present in the gimbal, some movement may occur--this is likely the case with these relatively inexpensive gimbals). And again, it is the sheer weight of the Glidecam vs the JR that would render the footsteps less noticeable.

Terry Thompson · May 16th, 2006, 08:02 PM

Prech,

You know I was working on a real good explanation of the whole thing and then my power went out. Gone, gone, gone. I guess it's better to save the post and then edit it rather than loose it altogether.

Anyway, from what I have learned, the gimbal handle on a GC won't take much of the "footsteps" out of a shot since your wrist isn't doing much bending. It usualy keeps a constant angle just like when using an articulated arm.

Here are the three biggest contributing factors to getting rid of the blasted footsteps that I have found:

1. Have more mass as it's harder to move a heavier object than a lighter one. Charles P. mentioned this.

2. Practice developing a smooth control arm (sometimes called muscle memory). You do this by filling a glass with "Alien" blood. You know, the kind that eats through metal and everything else so you don't want to spill any. If you can't find Alien blood then water or any other liquid will do. Now go for a walk while holding the full glass in the same way you would hold the GC sled. Try to keep from spilling. The more you practice the better you'll get. Now do the same while walking backwards. Next try a combination such as forward, hold for 10 seconds, then backwards. From there do other moves that cause instability such as accelerating and changing directions. Remember to accelerate and decelerate gradually just like when using the stabilization system (most of the time).

Once that is completed move to the sled itself and see how much you have improved.

3. Walk the walk. Charles mentioned this as well. Keep your legs a bit bent and try to walk as smoothly as possible. If you do this without a rig you should get some funny looks from others. Don't take long steps.

When I find I have some "footsteps" in a shot it's usually from having my legs to straight. It's seems funny to have to practice walking smoothly with a stabilizer. After all, what's the stabilizer for? Actually the pros have learned the "walk" and it's second nature to them. The rest of us just have to learn from them.

Now that we've practiced and are much better we'll try the sled thing again with the camera zoomed about half way in. After shooting some footage and watching it we'll see where we need more practice.

Conclusion: There's a lot more to becoming a good steadicam operator than buying a good rig. It takes time but the shots are worth it.

Tery
Indicam

Prech Marton · May 17th, 2006, 12:20 AM

Terry,

"Have more mass as it's harder to move a heavier object than a lighter one."
Oops, in the near future i'm thinking to replace my xm2 to sony hc1.
Maybe a bad idea, when we talk about steady shots :(

Sorry, my english is not so good, what is Alien blood?

Finally, do you mean, when i observe this 3 advice and practice, i can make better result with JR other than GC?

Marton

Terry Thompson · May 17th, 2006, 10:22 AM

Prech,

"Alien" blood is from the movie "Alien" where they cut into the dead alien's body during an examination and the blood (acid) dropped onto the floor and burned through it and about 4 more floors below it. It was a joke meaning that you don't want to spill any liquid as you walk.

------------

If you do any one of the three previously mentioned points you should get better results with any stabilizer. The fact that the GC is heavier than the JR is in point #1. #1. normally wouldn't apply to you as you don't want any more weight to carry around but if you did have a heavier camera on the JR, the shot would be more stable.

The biggest helps for you will be the things you can change. Since you have a JR and don't really want it heavier then you should concentrate on numbers 2 and 3.

An example...Charles P. tried out my rig a while back and he got some very good shots even though he's used to a much heavier system (point #1). He has perfected the 2nd and 3rd principles so the shot looked very good. I'll try and find it so it can be posted on my website.

In conclusion, if you work on the 2nd and 3rd principles then you can take better shots with any system that you use.

Tery
Indicam

Prech Marton · June 28th, 2006, 04:15 AM

Finally, i have my glidecam 2000 pro!
Here in Hungary i cannot buy a JR.
But i like this GC too.
It wasnt cheap (2 weddings here)
I make relaxation dvds, and i hope i can use it also for my movies.
Walking in the forest, etc.

Terry Thompson · June 29th, 2006, 12:20 PM

Prech,

Congratulations on getting your 2000 Pro. You will be able to get some very good shots with it. There are loads of posts on this forum that will help you get the most out of your investment.

Just from a point of interest, what did the 2000 Pro cost you over in Hungry? If you can let me know, we can convert it to USD. We would like to know because we have a friend from Hungry and we hope to be doing business there soon.

Tery
Indicam

P.S. Let us know when your arm gets real tired. We can fix that.

Prech Marton · July 19th, 2006, 02:43 PM

So, i have my glidecam 2000, i enjoy it.
But i need a quick release mount.
My friend has a manfrotto 501 head, and he has a mount.
But my head is only 128RC, and i dont find a quick release mount for
this type. Is there any? What can i do?
There isn't much time to get my xm2 from the glidecam in wedding situation.

thx,
Marton

Prech Marton · July 19th, 2006, 02:49 PM

Terry:

the 2000 pro cost in hungary 106.000 HUF incl. every tax, etc.
about 450-500 usd.

"P.S. Let us know when your arm gets real tired. We can fix that."

HOW?

May 15th, 2006, 07:17 AM	#31
Prech Marton Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: hungary Posts: 462	"Both gimbals rotate." Imho this is false. JR gimbals doesn't rotate when you boom your arm. But GC does rotate a little. Just look the design of both gimbals. __________________ Relaxing clips with waterfalls and music, 3D photos, 3D videos: www.3d-video.hu

May 15th, 2006, 07:23 AM	#32
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	OK, please enlighten me--I don't see any mechanical reason why the GC gimbal would rotate with elevation, unless you are factoring in erratic hand movement. By "rotate", we are talking about the pan bearing, right? Looking back, I think I see a confusion--I thought perhaps you were saying that the JR gimbal doesn't rotate in general. My contention here is not that both rotate on booming--but I would still maintain that NEITHER should rotate if the boom is properly executed. By "properly", I mean that the elbow rises with the hand, so that the angle of the wrist is maintained. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

May 15th, 2006, 07:30 AM	#33
Prech Marton Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: hungary Posts: 462	"By "rotate", we are talking about the pan bearing, right?" No, rotating around all 3 axis. "you were saying that the JR gimbal doesn't rotate in general." JR also rotate of course, but the footsteps are more visible than in GC. __________________ Relaxing clips with waterfalls and music, 3D photos, 3D videos: www.3d-video.hu

May 15th, 2006, 08:57 AM	#34
Mikko Wilson Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Juneau, Alaska, USA Posts: 624	Gimble or wrist? Beacuse of the design of the GC gimble it is possible to move ("rotate") the handle up around the CG to take out 'bounce'. This is done by twisting the wrist - definatly not the proper operating as described by Charles. This is the same twist that is one of the fundemental problems with the Glidecam type rigs in handheld mode. If you want, you can hold the JR gimble sideways and have a similar effect, again by sacreficing comfort (and risking injuring your wrist) Held properly, no gimble will dempen any displacement, horizontally or vertically. The idea of the gimble is to isolate angluar motion, so the camera doesn't rotate when you do. - Mikko __________________ Mikko Wilson - Steadicam Owner / Operator - Juneau, Alaska, USA +1 (907) 321-8387 - mikkowilson@hotmail.com - www.mikkowilson.com Last edited by Mikko Wilson; May 16th, 2006 at 07:57 AM.

May 15th, 2006, 09:01 AM	#35
Prech Marton Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: hungary Posts: 462	"If you want, you can hold the JR gimble sideways and have a similar effect" I dont want to test it, because of the cheap plastic gimbal design. What if i broke it? My GL2 wasn't so cheap... __________________ Relaxing clips with waterfalls and music, 3D photos, 3D videos: www.3d-video.hu

May 15th, 2006, 12:15 PM	#36
Ben Winter Trustee Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 1,675 Images: 1	There's my Steadicam JR for sale in the classifieds thread if anyone wants it. __________________ BenWinter.com

May 15th, 2006, 07:53 PM	#38
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Thanks Mikko for getting to the heart of the matter. As he noted, the gimbal is there to provide isolation in the three angular axes: pan, tilt and roll. The three spatial axes (forward/back, side to side and up and down) are less critical to the stable effect of the photography and are controlled by the operator's arm. In theory, booming up and down should have no effect on the angular axes (if there is stiction present in the gimbal, some movement may occur--this is likely the case with these relatively inexpensive gimbals). And again, it is the sheer weight of the Glidecam vs the JR that would render the footsteps less noticeable. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

May 16th, 2006, 08:02 PM	#39
Terry Thompson Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, CA Posts: 578	Prech, You know I was working on a real good explanation of the whole thing and then my power went out. Gone, gone, gone. I guess it's better to save the post and then edit it rather than loose it altogether. Anyway, from what I have learned, the gimbal handle on a GC won't take much of the "footsteps" out of a shot since your wrist isn't doing much bending. It usualy keeps a constant angle just like when using an articulated arm. Here are the three biggest contributing factors to getting rid of the blasted footsteps that I have found: 1. Have more mass as it's harder to move a heavier object than a lighter one. Charles P. mentioned this. 2. Practice developing a smooth control arm (sometimes called muscle memory). You do this by filling a glass with "Alien" blood. You know, the kind that eats through metal and everything else so you don't want to spill any. If you can't find Alien blood then water or any other liquid will do. Now go for a walk while holding the full glass in the same way you would hold the GC sled. Try to keep from spilling. The more you practice the better you'll get. Now do the same while walking backwards. Next try a combination such as forward, hold for 10 seconds, then backwards. From there do other moves that cause instability such as accelerating and changing directions. Remember to accelerate and decelerate gradually just like when using the stabilization system (most of the time). Once that is completed move to the sled itself and see how much you have improved. 3. Walk the walk. Charles mentioned this as well. Keep your legs a bit bent and try to walk as smoothly as possible. If you do this without a rig you should get some funny looks from others. Don't take long steps. When I find I have some "footsteps" in a shot it's usually from having my legs to straight. It's seems funny to have to practice walking smoothly with a stabilizer. After all, what's the stabilizer for? Actually the pros have learned the "walk" and it's second nature to them. The rest of us just have to learn from them. Now that we've practiced and are much better we'll try the sled thing again with the camera zoomed about half way in. After shooting some footage and watching it we'll see where we need more practice. Conclusion: There's a lot more to becoming a good steadicam operator than buying a good rig. It takes time but the shots are worth it. Tery Indicam __________________ He's only mostly sDEADy. sort of from "The Princess Bride" www.indicam.com

May 17th, 2006, 12:20 AM	#40
Prech Marton Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: hungary Posts: 462	Terry, "Have more mass as it's harder to move a heavier object than a lighter one." Oops, in the near future i'm thinking to replace my xm2 to sony hc1. Maybe a bad idea, when we talk about steady shots :( Sorry, my english is not so good, what is Alien blood? Finally, do you mean, when i observe this 3 advice and practice, i can make better result with JR other than GC? Marton __________________ Relaxing clips with waterfalls and music, 3D photos, 3D videos: www.3d-video.hu

May 17th, 2006, 10:22 AM	#41
Terry Thompson Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, CA Posts: 578	Prech, "Alien" blood is from the movie "Alien" where they cut into the dead alien's body during an examination and the blood (acid) dropped onto the floor and burned through it and about 4 more floors below it. It was a joke meaning that you don't want to spill any liquid as you walk. ------------ If you do any one of the three previously mentioned points you should get better results with any stabilizer. The fact that the GC is heavier than the JR is in point #1. #1. normally wouldn't apply to you as you don't want any more weight to carry around but if you did have a heavier camera on the JR, the shot would be more stable. The biggest helps for you will be the things you can change. Since you have a JR and don't really want it heavier then you should concentrate on numbers 2 and 3. An example...Charles P. tried out my rig a while back and he got some very good shots even though he's used to a much heavier system (point #1). He has perfected the 2nd and 3rd principles so the shot looked very good. I'll try and find it so it can be posted on my website. In conclusion, if you work on the 2nd and 3rd principles then you can take better shots with any system that you use. Tery Indicam __________________ He's only mostly sDEADy. sort of from "The Princess Bride" www.indicam.com

June 28th, 2006, 04:15 AM	#42
Prech Marton Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: hungary Posts: 462	Finally, i have my glidecam 2000 pro! Here in Hungary i cannot buy a JR. But i like this GC too. It wasnt cheap (2 weddings here) I make relaxation dvds, and i hope i can use it also for my movies. Walking in the forest, etc. __________________ Relaxing clips with waterfalls and music, 3D photos, 3D videos: www.3d-video.hu

June 29th, 2006, 12:20 PM	#43
Terry Thompson Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, CA Posts: 578	Prech, Congratulations on getting your 2000 Pro. You will be able to get some very good shots with it. There are loads of posts on this forum that will help you get the most out of your investment. Just from a point of interest, what did the 2000 Pro cost you over in Hungry? If you can let me know, we can convert it to USD. We would like to know because we have a friend from Hungry and we hope to be doing business there soon. Tery Indicam P.S. Let us know when your arm gets real tired. We can fix that. __________________ He's only mostly sDEADy. sort of from "The Princess Bride" www.indicam.com

July 19th, 2006, 02:43 PM	#44
Prech Marton Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: hungary Posts: 462	So, i have my glidecam 2000, i enjoy it. But i need a quick release mount. My friend has a manfrotto 501 head, and he has a mount. But my head is only 128RC, and i dont find a quick release mount for this type. Is there any? What can i do? There isn't much time to get my xm2 from the glidecam in wedding situation. thx, Marton __________________ Relaxing clips with waterfalls and music, 3D photos, 3D videos: www.3d-video.hu

July 19th, 2006, 02:49 PM	#45
Prech Marton Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: hungary Posts: 462	Terry: the 2000 pro cost in hungary 106.000 HUF incl. every tax, etc. about 450-500 usd. "P.S. Let us know when your arm gets real tired. We can fix that." HOW? __________________ Relaxing clips with waterfalls and music, 3D photos, 3D videos: www.3d-video.hu