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Still Crazy
You say you want resolution? The whole world is watching these digicams.


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Old December 18th, 2003, 11:51 AM   #31
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Nah; I don't post a lot (here), but I will try to help.

....."better manual control?"

In digicams, that's a tough one. Generally, more manual control comes with more costly models. At the top of the field are digital SLRs; and the Canon is the cheapest of them.
(Of course, film - based photography has been around for over 100 years, and that technology is the traditional and cheaper means to learn basic photography.)
If the plunge into that pool is within your means, then splash away; it's the path to the future. Good luck!
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Old December 18th, 2003, 12:08 PM   #32
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Helen,

i looked into the DIGILUX 2 before i got my rebel, DIGILUX 2 has a great glass, very nice range at 28-90, but the camera is nothing more then a rebranded Panasonic Lumix DMC-LC1 .

although there is no mirror slap, there also is no mirror, it pretty much an expensive point and shot with all manual function done through the lcd, including focus, so you still have to deal with on screen menus and functions, if anything the rebel can be used with less lcd menu fickling..

the digilux will be out in feb, US price is set to be $1850.00 now compare that small 2/3 noisy ccd (11.000 x 6.600) to the rebel's 22.7 x 15.1 mm CMOS sensor (slightly bigger then 4/3) at 900.00

the rebel for the time being is the best bang for the buck for a real d-srl
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Old December 18th, 2003, 05:36 PM   #33
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"best bang for the buck..."

That's about how I would put it.

Since interchangeable-lens SLRs are kind of the default form-factor for the industry, that's what I would like to see someone learn on. Something like the Rebel is the perfect starter. Then, no matter how high up the totem pole you go later (Nikon D2X or whatever, even a "real" film cam) it's going to be familiar territory.

Nail down a good body, then you can accessorize like crazy as you go (Canon has a huge catalogue of lenses and other goodies). One thing to consider first, a speedlight so you don't have to keep using that wimpy built-in flash. A 550EX if you can afford it.
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Old December 18th, 2003, 07:35 PM   #34
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Wow, thanks, Robert, Helen, Mike and Douglas for your helpful info and encouragement!

I'm intrigued by Jeff's observations:

"However, it is lacking a long list of features required of a camera before a professional would look at it."

"Does that mean that the Digital Rebel can't produce images suitable for professional work? No, the image quality meets or exceeds 35mm film in almost all conditions."

Jeff, it's great to hear the Rebel produces such outstanding images. But with the Rebel's diminished pro-features, would it necessarily be better to learn basic SLR-photography on a film camera?

Also, could anyone kindly suggest a book that covers basic photography principles and techniques?

Thanks, again!

Dorothy
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Old December 18th, 2003, 09:32 PM   #35
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Dorothy,

Digital is the best thing for learning about photography as you can experiment and see the results instantly. Many purists will disagree and rave on about manual cameras and developing your own work but in today's relality digital cameras and printing are what beginners should be learning. Where you used to learn about matrix metering, manual flash exposure, fixer, and developing times you now learn about histograms, colour profiles, and white balance.
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Old December 18th, 2003, 09:49 PM   #36
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Adrian just said it all(most), don't forget shutter speed and aperature still give photographs thier look.
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Old December 19th, 2003, 06:51 AM   #37
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Thanks Steve, I wanted to write more about exposure control and composition etc but had to go to work.

But, as I said earlier digital is great for learning, I'd been shooting for 5 years before I ventured into a darkroom. I did it once for the experience then went back to the computer.

Dorothy, books are good for ideas but the best thing you can do is get a Rebel, a couple of cards and start shooting, this way you develop your own style and don't end up emulating someone elses. Pick different subjects and blast away trying different combinations of settings. First of all use the auto modes to develop your eye for composition. Then as you start to get better venture into the creative modes and finally manual mode.
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Old December 19th, 2003, 09:35 AM   #38
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I would like to join the chorus one more time and say it's just like the old corny joke about the young out-of-towner who approaches one of New York's Finest and asks "excuse me officer, how do I get to Carnegie Hall?" The cop answered "Practice, practice, practice."

And so it is with photography. The more you do it, the better you get. And I believe you will get a lot more practice with the Digi-Reb than with any film camera because you don't have the hurdles of getting the film to and from the lab, to say nothing of the expense. My latest digicam has 3K shots on it in 6 months without even trying, which is like 125 rolls of film. (and the little one I got just before it has almost the same number of shots...that would never have happened if I were shooting "real" film.)

Some of the pro features on the 10D are not going to be missed by the beginner, and the Reb still has enough shutter and aperture adjustments to give you the necessary experience. And I don't think it's realistic to expect most people to ever get into the darkroom, although it's a good idea. When my daughter was in middle school, they still taught basic B/W darkroom technique in Photography class. I wonder if they still do.
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Old December 19th, 2003, 10:07 PM   #39
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If I was going to get a 10d over a Digital Rebel, durability would not be the reason. They are both built on a steel frame but the Rebel has a polycarbonate (ok, it's plastic) skin. It may sound cheesy, but if you pick one up and handle it, it feels just as solid as a 10d, and the plastic isn't the same cheap stuff kids toys are made up. It is hard. Remember they make handguns out of plastic these days too.

Anyway, a quick memory buffer question....
I was squeezing off continuous shots on a Digtal Rebel, and after taking the first four shots at full speed, which is supposed to be the buffer limit, it continued shooting but at a slower pace, maybe three shots every two seconds? I probably took about 20 photos like this before I stopped. I thought it would only take 4 shots, then have to write them all, but I was wrong. Do you know how many it can take continuously (at any speed) before having to stop and write them all to the card? It was set at full resolution mode, if it makes a difference.
Oh, once I stopped shooting, it took the camera a looong time to write those 20 pictures to the card. At least a minute or two I think.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 01:02 AM   #40
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Steven, Adrian......thanks!!!!!

"...books are good for ideas but the best thing you can do is get a Rebel, a couple of cards and start shooting, this way you develop your own style and don't end up emulating someone elses. Pick different subjects and blast away trying different combinations of settings."

Adrian, I just wanted a book recommendation to get up to snuff on photography essentials. I have no desire, nor ability for that matter, to emulate others' styles as I always wind up doing my own thing!

"First of all use the auto modes to develop your eye for composition. Then as you start to get better venture into the creative modes and finally manual mode."

I appreciate your suggestions, Adrian. I already have a project in mind! Hope to get my Rebel before next summer. Any chance for an upgrade in 2004?

Happy Chanukah from Santa Monica!

Dorothy
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Old December 20th, 2003, 01:14 AM   #41
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"I would like to join the chorus one more time and say it's just like the old corny joke about the young out-of-towner who approaches one of New York's Finest and asks "excuse me officer, how do I get to Carnegie Hall?" The cop answered "Practice, practice, practice."

Har! Har! So that's why I wound up in Carnegie Hall as a paying customer and not the star attraction!!!

If there's one thing I've learned since my less than sterling piano lessons of yore, it's when one absolutely, fabulously loves to do something, than it transcends pedestrian practice and becomes play and not work.

Thanks for your encouraging words, Mike!

Dorothy
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Old December 20th, 2003, 08:01 AM   #42
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<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Hi Peter,

The Digital Rebel is certainly affordable, but it is definitely not true-professional quality gear. It's very much a consumer piece, with the same plastic body as the consumer-level Rebel Ti 35mm SLR. The Canon EOS 10D, which is a D-SLR with the same chip as the Digital Rebel, is a step toward professional-quality gear. -->>>

Well I guess thats the same argument ppl uses for real broadcast gear vs. our feasily DV cameras.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 08:37 AM   #43
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I'm a happy user of both the EOS-1Ds and the Digital Rebel.

I love them both like children, and the Digital Rebel is a very good camera as well.. but something I like to use when I don't have the presure of professional shooting. It's good for a B camera in the sense that when I'm using the rebel I don't risk my larger investment into the 1Ds.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 08:42 AM   #44
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Robert wrote: 'i looked into the DIGILUX 2 before i got my rebel, DIGILUX 2 has a great glass, very nice range at 28-90, but the camera is nothing more then a rebranded Panasonic Lumix DMC-LC1 .

although there is no mirror slap, there also is no mirror, it pretty much an expensive point and shot with all manual function done through the lcd, including focus, so you still have to deal with on screen menus and functions, if anything the rebel can be used with less lcd menu fickling..'


Listen, I did describe myself as an old stick-in-the-mud. Perhaps that was wrong. I'm not so much sticking in the mud as swimming upstream, but someone's got to do it.

From what I've seen the important functions (focus, shutter speed and aperture) are all controlled by old-fashioned rings and dials. No messing with menus at all. If the Digilux 1 is anything to go by, the Digilux 2 will be more than a rebranded Panasonic - not that there is anything wrong with the Panasonics.

It also differs from most point-and-shoots in having an electronic viewfinder as well as the LCD screen. To me, an EVF seems better than a reflex mirror - you see what is going to be recorded. But that is just my opinion. How many video cameras use reflex viewing in preference to an EVF? (I remember using a reflex video camera back in the 70's)

As far as the brand image of Leica goes, it is best ignored. Leica make idiosyncratic equipment that offers an alternative to the mainstream. I have no wish whatsoever to persuade people to get Leica stuff, or that Leica is any 'better' (whatever that means) than others, just to make them aware that there is an alternative out there (and that it is not mis-represented). It's right for some of us - these are our brushes, not CNC machine tools.

Of course the most important thing is not whether you have a Leica or a Lomo - it is that you use it.

Best,
Helen
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Old December 20th, 2003, 09:28 AM   #45
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Helen wrote"...If the Digilux 1 is anything to go by, the Digilux 2 will be more than a rebranded Panasonic ..."

actually its the exact same camera, except the panasonic is all black and the leica is in its familiar fashion, both cameras are built entirely by panasonic, even the lenses...pretty much like the dvx100 with the leica lens

"this is not your fathers leica",
yes it does have a viewfinder, which features a 5x multiplier box and manual control

however...

the cameras' iso is only 100-400 with a very small and noisy 2/3 chip much too limiting, also shutter speed is limited to 8- to 1/2000

my feeling for the limitations are the small ccd, at 800iso it would have more noise then a someone who just paid $1,800 can stand

longtime leica film owners will feel disapointed jumping into the digital pool with this cam, and it's a shame too

thats why i said this was a glorified point and shoot, folks who want more range will look somewhere else, while yuppies that shop by brand will be the ones picking up this $1,800 cam

although you are right it doesn't matter what type of camera you have, it's what pictures you take.. :)
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