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Still Crazy
You say you want resolution? The whole world is watching these digicams.


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Old December 20th, 2003, 03:41 PM   #46
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Funny how the mention of Leica sparks off anti-Leica feeling like no other camera make.

Apart from the cosmetic differences, the Digilux 1 has different firmware from the Panasonic. The images they produce look quite different. They are not 'the exact same'. This was deliberate policy by the Leica/Panasonic team to produce cameras for two different types of user. However, I'll admit that the similarities outweigh the small differences.

Any long-time Leica M owner who 'jumps into the digital pool' with any current camera will be disappointed if they expect the same performance: there is nothing quite like the M in a digital form made by anybody. They will not be disappointed if they are prepared to learn a new way of working.

As I said in my previous post, Leicas are not for everybody, they aren't the 'best', and I'm not trying to persuade anyone to buy one. It is a shame to see them and their users misrepresented.

Robert, can we agree to differ in our views? I know that I'm not going to change your mind, and I really don't wish to argue with you because I agree with you on much more than these minor details that we disagree on!

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Helen
(just in case you were wondering - I've been using Leica M's since '77, so call me a yuppie brand-shopper. There was a time when my Leica kit was worth more than my house - I lived in a 'colliery row' in a mining village in Northern England. It's just a matter of getting your priorities right!)
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Old December 20th, 2003, 09:47 PM   #47
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"Funny how the mention of Leica sparks off anti-Leica feeling like no other camera make."

Well, I don't have a dog in this fight, since I don't have any anti-any-brand feeling and consider myself reasonably objective when iit comes to shelling out hard-earned cash for equipment, so i'll weigh in.

This new product, if Robert's specs are accurate, seems to be worth nowhere near the asking price, no matter whose name is on the front. You can go ahead and call it a Hasselblad or a Gowlandflex for that matter, and it will still have the same chip and ISO limits. etc. And a longtime Leica M user wouldn't even contemplate going down this road, they would not be fooled. But a newbie with money to burn might be taken in by the prestige of the name and be expecting the quality of the legendary M series. But isn't that a bit like if Rolls-Royce were buying Saabs and putting the boxy grille and winged lady on the front and selling them as Rollers?

As for EVFs, I'm happy to leave them where they belong, on camcorders. I've been using still cameras too long to accept anything but an SLR or a proper rangefinder.

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Old December 21st, 2003, 05:14 AM   #48
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It's time to get this thread back on topic folks.
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Old December 22nd, 2003, 12:57 PM   #49
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One thing I haven't noticed us talking much about is that there is another motivation for considering an SLR like the Rebel--interchangeable lenses.

Why is this important? Well, it's pretty well known that digital electronics in general and specifically digital camera electronics are on a pretty steep technology curve, where they just keep getting cheaper and faster all the time. For instance, it wasn't so long ago that a 6.3 MP SLR for less than $1000 was unimaginable. But lens technology is on a much flatter trajectory, so the lens you buy today might be the one you strap onto the camera you buy to replace your Rebel three years from now. Actually, when I bought my 10D, the first lens I put on it was a three-year-old 28-80 zoom that I had.

As long as Canon keep coming out with SLRs that fit the whole catalogue of EF lenses (and the whole aftermarket of Canon-compatible lenses) as they do now, that glass you buy will be a good long-term investment and may actually hold its value better than the body.
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Old December 22nd, 2003, 02:47 PM   #50
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That'a a good point Mike. If SLR lens compatability is a factor, Nikon is the clear winner. Canon's history isn't quite so good. If past performance for both still and video cameras is anything to go by, Canon are quite happy to change mounts completely.

Best,
Helen
(I still use my perfectly good T90 but have resisted 'upgrading' to a newer Canon because of the huge investment in new glass - because old Canon lenses don't fit new Canon bodies)
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Old December 22nd, 2003, 04:06 PM   #51
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True, Helen, Nikon lenses fit back to "prehistoric" days, where Canon mounts have changed. My friend's AE1 has lenses that won't fit anything new.

Having said that, at this point in history when I was shopping for a digital SLR, I was already invested in the Canon EF mount on the film side, which is one reason why I didn't give the Nikon D100 greater consideration. My "non-digital" lenses and speedlight all transferred over to the 10D very nicely, whereas I would have had to buy all new if I had switched brands. Let's hope that Canon stick to their present mounts, now that the EOS family of systems is SOOOO popular.
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Old December 22nd, 2003, 07:44 PM   #52
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Canon is a company with a clear commitment to being a leader in technological innovations. Their one and only major change in many years of lens mount design came as a result of that commitment. Nikon leveraged that change by reminding everyone that their mount had not changed. Several years later, now that the dust has settled, it is clear to me that Canon made the best decision and Nikon is still trying to figure out how to adapt new technology to an old infrastructure, imho.

Digital Rebel users or others considering stepping up to Canon DSLR bodies can rest assured Canon will not be changing lens mount design again soon, it will happen when technology justifies a significant change. Changing something this important does not sell more lenses as some suspect, it can alienate your customers who Canon understands have made a significant investment in their glass products.

Here is a list of the improvements the Canon lens mount change facilitated http://www.usa.canon.com/eflenses/technology/lensmount.html

Helen,
I enjoy your informative responses very much. I think you may be someone that will understand this light hearted comment from me. After converting from Nikon to Canon systems one of the hardest things for me to get used to was using a lens that does not have an aperture ring! I still find my fingers habitually searching for that all important device that is no longer on the lens. Maybe it is just that my fingers are numb from the investment I made in Mike's great liquor company.

Steve
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Old December 24th, 2003, 03:58 AM   #53
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Absolutely true that Nikon's loyalty to an ancient lens mount is a bit of a millstone - well at least it is round. Aren't Canon on their third mount - FL, FD, EF?

I thought that the Digital Rebel has a 'modified' EF mount, so that the new range of lenses made/to be made for the D-R- wont fit the rest of the EOS line because the mirror will foul the rear of the lens. So if you want to invest in lenses, dont buy the 18-55 made for the D-R-?

Best,
Helen
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Old December 24th, 2003, 09:33 AM   #54
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Well I guess that is twice in 7 days I have posted responses with flawed information. Maybe one of my new years resolutions will be to just keep my mouth shut here unless I absolutely know what I am talking about.

I do not shoot with a Digital Rebel, I have 2 10Ds, EOS1n and an EOS3 and only L series glass. I thought the new Rebel lenses were just cheaper construction to make them affordable for the consumer. I apologize for my poor information. Next time I will shut up or do the homework before pounding out a response.

Steve
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Old December 24th, 2003, 10:39 AM   #55
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Technically the mount didn't change. Many people are modifying the EF-S lens by cutting off the small plastic extension and using it on other models.

Nikon also changed their mounts several years ago. The newer G(?) series lenses won't fit on older bodies. Newer bodies (N80, N75, others ?) won't accept older lenses.

Canon made a wise decision in changing from the manual FL, FD mounts to the EF mount. The larger diameter lens mount enabled Canon to introduce USM and IS technology in 35mm bodies (both world firsts). Nikon had to spend considerably more R & D dollars to develop Silent Wave and VR technology because of their allegiance to the F mount. The delayed introduction of both technologies has cost Nikon both dollars and market share. Many consider this the fall of Nikon dominance in professional circles. Attend any major sporting event and you'll only see a few black Nikon tele's in a sea of Canon white tele's.
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Old December 24th, 2003, 10:44 AM   #56
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Thank you Jeff, that is exactly what I tried to say, only you said it better, and with the correct information, as usual. I am serious about being more careful about what I post.

Steve
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Old December 24th, 2003, 11:07 AM   #57
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It's easy to get confused about this stuff if you don't face it on a daily basis. I've got students all the time trying to figure lens issues out. I'm not even sure I'm 100% correct all the time, anymore.
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Old December 24th, 2003, 11:32 AM   #58
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I find keeping up with technology to be one of my greatest challenges. Especially when my job entails having to work in so many aspects of it these days. Video, audio, lighting, postproduction, projection and stills. Life was much simpler when all I did for a living was shoot stills 15 years ago. I am very much aware that I am now a jack of many trades.

Being a member of this community is a big deal to me, it helps me keep up with that technology curve.

Thank You Jeff, and Merry Christmas to all.

Steve
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