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Still Crazy
You say you want resolution? The whole world is watching these digicams.


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Old December 17th, 2006, 02:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Stephen van Vuuren
PS. If you send me your complete info offline (my contact info is at sv2studios.com or outsideinfilms.org), I will be sure to include you in the credits and keep you updated on the film. I hope it will tour Germany when released...

Hey, I guess this is the first time ever my name will be in the credits of a movie. Swell!

One more thought: some people reported problems with the shutter of their EOS 20D after 20.000 to 25.000 frames. So you will probably need a camera with a very robust shutter like a 1D or D2X.
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Old December 19th, 2006, 06:59 AM   #17
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I would suggest a high end point and shoot with an electronic shutter. I'd be as worried about wrecking my shutter and mirror than thermal issues. Maybe mirror lock up would help?
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Old December 19th, 2006, 09:03 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Andy Wason
I would suggest a high end point and shoot with an electronic shutter. I'd be as worried about wrecking my shutter and mirror than thermal issues. Maybe mirror lock up would help?
Andy
That's valid as well. I'm leaning to shooting 1080p 4:4:4 and uprezzing because of shutter and thermal issues.
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Old December 22nd, 2006, 11:31 AM   #19
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Stephen -- I've followed some of your previous threads on experiments with "slow shoot/speed-up post" and I really admire your experimentation and innovation.

The business about DSLR shutters failing after around 20,000+ frames (depending on camera make and model) is a well-known concern with the people who have adopted them for animation film making. They consider these camera bodies to be "consumables" on a film because of it (at least with a DSLR you get to keep the lens!).

If you are heading toward using a laptop/tethered camera combo have you considered using a box camera? I'm experimenting with a Sumix (for conventional 24 or 25 fps film making, though obviously setting slower film speeds would be easier for you to achieve). The M73 is a 3 mgp camera and the max frame size is 2048 x 1536; I'm not sure what this max frame size filming speed would be, but certainly higher than 4 fps (shooting 8-bit Bayer uncompressed to RAM to solve HDD speed limitations). An example from my tests: a 1.85:1 widescreen frame of 2000 x 1080 x 18 fps produces 560 frames in 2 GB of RAM (if you were shooting 4 fps what's that, about 2 1/2 minutes per shot?). The actual width should be 1998 but ROI figures need to be divisible by 8, so you can crop 2 pixels from the width later in post. You can also shoot RGB to the HDD but I don't know anything about that, I'm just shooting Bayer to RAM. The cameras use rolling shutter, usually a problem for big frames, but your images get distorted in Twixtor anyway so perhaps not a problem for you.

I think Sumix make a large camera (might be 6 mgp, I can't remember) which would be too slow for normal filming but might be just up your street for large frames and slow fps filming speeds. Don't know anything about prices, but hopefully would be less than a "disposable" DSLR. Checkout their website.

The decision of whether to shoot 2k or 4k is quite important; the size hike is significant. Here are some figures for your consideration. The Digital Cinema Initiatives (CDI) frame sizes for widescreen and CinemaScope are:

2k 1.85:1 = 1998 x 1080.
4k 1.85:1 = 3996 x 2160.
2k 2.39:1 = 2048 x 858.
4k 2.39:1 = 4096 x 1714.

I plan on shooting a reasonable frame size which will be expanded later. My output would be a tiff sequence and a Photoshop action will expand them to final size. The Photoshop algorithm for their bicubic engine is pretty good with expansions in this size range. You can also try specialist Photoshop plugins like S-Spline or Genuine Fractals (please check that these plug-ins can be actioned in Photoshop or have automation themselves, otherwise you might end up having to expand every frame yourself).

All the best,
very interesting project from you as usual,
John.
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Old December 22nd, 2006, 12:04 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by John Wyatt
Stephen -- I've followed some of your previous threads on experiments with "slow shoot/speed-up post" and I really admire your experimentation and innovation.
Thanks John - all my "experimentation and innovation" is either keeping my braincells exercised or frying them way before their time.

I appreciate your thoughts. I do think the thermal and shutter issue is going to kill the DSLR idea especially since I have decided to do 10 actors instead of 2 and with the number of images is approaching 150,000.

I had thought of a box camera but not done any research. I will investigate the Sumix - sound interesting. I do have PhotoZoom Pro 2 which batch uprezzes - I agree batch is a must for my kind of crazy work.

Of course, I may end us shooting one way for the fundraising trailer and then when shooting see if I can interest RED in loaning us a camera. I sure they have bazillions of requests but probably not bazillions of people both creating native 4k and projecting native 4K...

Per final size, the 2k vs. 4k decision depends on what kinds of inside images I can get from JPL/NASA. Some of the public images are too low rez though I have a good chunk that are large enough.

Either way, it will end up as 16:9 4k to match the Sony SXRD 4k projectors native rez. (3940 X 2160). But because all of the film is 1000's of composited still layers in 3D space, I don't have to get exactly that rez, just "enough" when camera flies by to keep image sharp.
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Old December 25th, 2006, 06:00 PM   #21
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maybe my idea can help ??

ok well i hope im understanding this thread properly..

but are you trying to capture a very large amount of frames on to one single thing

i know its not the digital route but why dont you try and buy bulk film...

you can buy rools of film and then normally you cut it up into the ammounts of frames that you want...

i have an EOS 1 taht takes 5fps and shoots up 1/2000th

ive played with it with no film and if you hold the button down itll keep on shooting until you dton want to anymore...

youd ahve to get the film processed and then scanned to disc to get it on a computer but maybe somethingt o conciedr

if im way off disregard this post

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Old December 29th, 2006, 10:18 PM   #22
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Pretty much.

1/2000 means it's leaving the shutter open for a 2000th of a second, the amount of light let in.

What you need is the FPS, the speed of the frame advance. On most modern SLR cameras, the max is 2 to 4 frames per second, before filling up. The fastest, ebing the Caonon EOS 1D MarkII, at 9 FPS. The Canon EOS 1VHS (the most advanced film model I've used) has 10 FPS, because all it has to do keep pulling film. It's the equivalant of doing a 10FPS movie, which compared to NTSC standards of 30 frames per second, will be stuttery, although would be good for stop-motion photography (showing fast action, step by step).
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Old January 21st, 2007, 07:59 AM   #23
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I've never shot 18000 on the trot, but I know the 20d will do what you require given a fast enough connection to the computer. The 5d should also.

With regards to thermal issues, I shoot quite often in Hawaii and England (pretty much opposing ends of the spectrum) and haven't ever had any thermal issues (including after leaving the 10d on the cars dashboard in Maui) although they do work better when they aren't bashed about. One issue you may notice is that even if the camera doesn't cut out from heat you would get increased noise the hotter the chip gets. If you can just point an a\c unit at it (from a sensible range) and ensure humidity isn't too high.

With respect to shutter life, my 10d has taken circa 80k images in 4-5 years so while shutter life can be an issue it does vary a lot. You should see 50-100k without an issue from all mid to high range dslr's. I can't speak for the xxxd series or even the impending xxxxd series, but everything above that should deliver an acceptable shutter life and you can have shutters refurbed for far less then the cost of a new unit.

I couldn't give you specs for nikons, they are great cameras but Ive always used canon.
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Old January 30th, 2007, 03:20 PM   #24
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Hi there Stephen

First off, I am not sure as to the exact resolution you would be looking at, and your aspect ratios... But then I am new to video, but I am a pro still-photographer.

So here is my 2c worth...

(Pardon if I just try and dispel some issues in some posts here, along the way)

If I summise correctly, you will be looking at RAW images taken with a camera (still) at 3-4 fps with a 4k+ resolution at a (close to) APS-C sensor size, which should be able to take 150k photos continuesly. The images captured onto HDD, and I suppose then pulled into your NLE (after RAW processing) in either TIF or PNG format.

If I am correct in this, then I would recommend a Canon EOS 1D Mark II or the newer Mark IIn.

This camera has a slightly larger sensor than APS-C (1.3x crop from 35mm) with 8.2MP resolution at a near framerate of 8.5 fps.
It is true that some 'consumer' rated cameras, like the Canon EOS 20D's shutter is only benchmarked at about 50k exposures, and will then supposedly die on you.
This is not a given though... I am on 107k+, and mine is still going.

BUT, the EOS 1D II, is rated at 250k exposures, and mine has done more than that. (Some of that for your experiment)

I coupled my 1D IIn to my PC (I also run stripe arrays on my 4x 300GB HDDs) and did some testing. Although not near your mark of 100k. I took 250+ photos in RAW (almost 11MB per frame) at 8+fps (only lasted about 30") of a simple scene @ 100 ISO in manual mode.
The scene was well lit, and there was no real movement on the focus plain, i.e. no real focus hunting necessary.
I did this test both in single-shot and Al-Servo (predictive AF) modes.

All I can say is this:
"I got tired (mostly bored) before the camera did. I felt no heat from the camera after both takes. I even opened the camera and popped the mirror (ala lens cleaning mode) and felt absolutely no heat generated from either the shutter, or any circuitry. I inserted a CF card, kept it in for about 10", and removed it, and it felt cold to the touch."

I do not know the purpose of the imagery, nor the content of your shoot, but I would recommend some fast lenses, and using a camera with a very good AF system.
I do think that most sport shooters out there would agree, that the white lenses probably wins this battle hands down.

I would however NOT recommend doing this type project full frame (like Richard suggested) with a 5D, or even the 1Ds II.
Firstly, it is a hell of a lot of data to deal with. Better IQ yes, but too much for a 4k production. Definite overkill comes to mind.
Secondly, the crop factor helps getting 'cheaper' glass closer. Very fast (AF wise) lenses from Canon is the 70-200 f/2.8, or even the f/4 if you can live with that DOF. The Image Stabilization part is almost 2x the price, and if you are mounting the cam, you will have to turn off the IS in any case.

If you are looking into fast primes (again I am referring to AF speed here) the 35 f/1.4L, 50 1.4, 85 1.8, 100 f/2, 135 f/2L.
(Both the 50mm and 85mm have bigger brothers in the L series, and both are brand-spanking-new to the line-up... BUT, I do find the AF speed on the 85 non-L still faster than the new L --- has a lot less glass to move around --- and for the 50mm, well the AF speeds are about the same, but the lens is insanely priced, and frankly I do not see much difference on stills I can look at the whole day. For 'moving pictures' ???

As for getting a Nikon D2H (or any other 2nd hand D-SLR for that matter) you will never know how many actuations the shutter has made. And yes, like a car, you can wind the mileage down.

Now I do not know your budget (but listening at what you want to do) will probably pay out better in the long run to shoot with something new, is dependable, and you know you could get replacements for if needed.

(If you intend something like was done for the stills used in the action scenes for The Matrix, those were done with 'consumer' cameras - Canon EOS 50's I think it was.)


Good luck with the project. If you need any more advice (even just some feedback) drop me a pm.

Kind regards
Jacques
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Old January 30th, 2007, 03:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Jacques Swanepoel

Good luck with the project. If you need any more advice (even just some feedback) drop me a pm.

Kind regards
Jacques
Thanks for the detailed info. That's exactly the info I was looking for in a test.

I just did a test shoot a couple of weeks ago with a rented D200 and found several issues. The D200 cuts off at 100 shots and only makes that many in JPG (going to card - D200 would not couple with PC for continuous shooting) but it did get 4fps for 30 or so seconds.

I shot around 1000 frames at 4 fps and 8-9 fps would be much better. 30 second takes would be perfect for my needs. The D200 (which did not have a cable or remote release) jumped around but a cable release should solve the issue.

I'm just working on a budget for the film and your info is very timely. Thanks again. Send me your full info and I will include you in the credits, tickets to a premiere (I would love to show it Jo'burg - I was born there, just down the road from you). PMs are disabled here but you can reach me at www.sv2studios.com or www.outsideinfilms.org

thanks again!
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