Music "used with permission" at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > And Now, For Something Completely Different... > Taking Care of Business

Taking Care of Business
The pen and paper aspects of DV -- put it in writing!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 17th, 2009, 01:20 PM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 388
Music "used with permission"

More and more, I'm seeing work on Vimeo with the caption : "music used with permission."

Just how does one "get permission" and what sort of time frame does it take?

I shoot short little things for work (as a teacher) and personal enjoyment. I'm not a pro and do not generate income from my work but, just the same I'd like to use background music as legally as possible and that includes getting proper permission.

How do I determine who to ask permission of to take a song out of my Itunes library and put it in a film? Should I expect to wait months or is this something that can be taken care of quickly once I convince them I'm not using it for commercial purposes?

Thanks
Bob
Bob Kerner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2009, 01:35 PM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kerner View Post
More and more, I'm seeing work on Vimeo with the caption : "music used with permission."

Just how does one "get permission" and what sort of time frame does it take?

I shoot short little things for work (as a teacher) and personal enjoyment. I'm not a pro and do not generate income from my work but, just the same I'd like to use background music as legally as possible and that includes getting proper permission.

How do I determine who to ask permission of to take a song out of my Itunes library and put it in a film? Should I expect to wait months or is this something that can be taken care of quickly once I convince them I'm not using it for commercial purposes?

Thanks
Bob
It really doesn't matter if it's being used commercially or not ... to use music as a soundtrack in your video you need a sync license from the owner of the copyright to the words and music, typically the publisher and, unless you're recording yourself or your own musicians in performance, also a Master Use license from the owner of the copyright to the specific recording you wish to use, typically that's the record label that released it. While ASCAP doesn't handle either license, thjey have a huge song database online that you can freely search to find out who you need to contact. Depending on the music and the use, time and costs can be all over the map, ranging from no charge and a few emails passing back and forth, to many thousands of dollars and contracts negotiations that would make a lawyer faint, to simply un-obtainable at all.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2009, 01:44 PM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Philly, PA
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kerner View Post
More and more, I'm seeing work on Vimeo with the caption : "music used with permission."

Just how does one "get permission" and what sort of time frame does it take?
If it's stuff like Pearl Jam or Guns N Roses (A-list stuff) there's likely a 100% chance they didn't "get permission". If it's an unheard of, but decent song, I'd guess they're probably friends with the band, or know them well enough to use the song in return of added promotion. My guess is they're just saying "used with permission" with no idea of copyright law in the first place.
David Barnett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2009, 02:12 PM   #4
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Willmar, MN
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kerner View Post
Just how does one "get permission" and what sort of time frame does it take?
In the two cases where I've used music with clearance, all it took was a phone call or a couple emails. In both cases I let the client take care of it. They simply queried an online database (like Steve mentioned) then sent an email describing the project and asked for permission. In one case, the permission was granted at no charge, and in the other case they used some formula to come up with a fee of $4. In both cases it only took a couple days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barnett View Post
If it's stuff like Pearl Jam or Guns N Roses (A-list stuff) there's likely a 100% chance they didn't "get permission". If it's an unheard of, but decent song, I'd guess they're probably friends with the band, or know them well enough to use the song in return of added promotion. My guess is they're just saying "used with permission" with no idea of copyright law in the first place.
I agree with your last statement... but the $4 song my client got clearance for was "Who'll Stop The Rain" from CCR. Certainly not an unknown song and you could argue that CCR was the GNR of their day. :)
Chris Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2009, 02:53 PM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barnett View Post
Pearl Jam or Guns N Roses (A-list stuff)
Ha ha. Now that's funny
Jeff Emery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2009, 03:12 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Philly, PA
Posts: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Davis View Post

I agree with your last statement... but the $4 song my client got clearance for was "Who'll Stop The Rain" from CCR. Certainly not an unknown song and you could argue that CCR was the GNR of their day. :)
Wow, I am shocked it was that low. However, I'm still willing to bet a good majority of the vids out there don't go thru all those steps. Nice to know you did it though, and for that cheap. Just curious, what was the project?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Emery View Post
Ha ha. Now that's funny
Are you mocking GnR being "A-list" stuff?? Old GnR, ok?!

(j/k, they just popped into my head at the time I was typing)
David Barnett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2009, 07:04 PM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 388
Thanks. I'll start with the ASCAP database
Bob Kerner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2009, 10:01 PM   #8
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Willmar, MN
Posts: 1,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Barnett View Post
Wow, I am shocked it was that low. However, I'm still willing to bet a good majority of the vids out there don't go thru all those steps. Nice to know you did it though, and for that cheap. Just curious, what was the project?
The project included a short segment with someone singing the chorus to the song. So we only needed sync rights and not master recording rights. The distribution is limited to 200 copies. However, I didn't do it, the client did. In fact, I pretty much told them they wouldn't be able to get the rights and to have a contingency plan for when they were told "no".
Chris Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 05:05 PM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 773
"Used with Permission" is not a legal term, it's an informal one, meant to sidestep around legal contracts and problems with informal works.

Basically, it's just as much of a hassle for most bands to "officially license" their work as it is for videomakers to "officially license" the work as well, involving lawyers and the like.

In short "used with permission" is to "Hey, could I borrow your lawnmower this weekend?" as "sync licensing" is to "Here are the liability waivers for injury and death, as well as the $300 deposit and acceptance of lawnmower borrowing license terms. Please sign here."

Most indie bands are more than welcome to let you use their stuff, many are willing to let you use it for a nominal fee if not for free. But you do have to ask them first.
__________________
Equip: Panny GH1, Canon HG20, Juicedlink, AT897, Sennh. EW/GW100, Zoom H2, Vegas 8.1
Brian Boyko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 19th, 2009, 06:03 PM   #10
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Boyko View Post
...
Basically, it's just as much of a hassle for most bands to "officially license" their work as it is for videomakers to "officially license" the work as well, involving lawyers and the like.

...
It doesn't have to be a hassle and it doesn't require lawyers. Assuming the band or artist actually owns the copyright to the song, all it really takes is a memo saying "Joe Filmmaker is hereby granted a license to synchonize the words and music of the song "Rub-a-Dub Dub" to images in his film "Three Men In A Tub" or words to that affect. Lawyers may make it more complicated, especially if payments, time-limits to the license, restrictions on the use of the film, and limitations on the geographic areas of distribution get involved but the basic license only requires a written notice of who is granting what priviledges to who. AFAIK the only thing really required is that it be in writing and that can be as simple as a one-paragraph note that summarizes the understanding between the two parties.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2009, 12:24 PM   #11
Wrangler
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles (recently from San Francisco)
Posts: 954
Actually, there's no requirement that a license be in writing -- only assignments of all rights and title in a copyright work require a license. However, as with any oral agreement, proof of the license and its terms can be problematic if an issue surfaces later.

A lawyer's contribution to a license consists of:

- a detailed and legally-accurate description of the nature and scope of the rights transferred, e.g. exclusive vs. non-exclusive, media, distribution, etc.;

- royalty arrangements, if any;

- representations and warranties regarding potential infringement, i.e. what happens if what was licensed turns out to infringe someone else's rights?;

- what rules of law will be used to construe the language of the license;

- where and how any dispute arising out of the license will be resolved;

- whether the license is assignable to someone else;

- how and under what circumstances the license can be terminated.

You can determine for yourself whether these kinds of concerns are important to the transaction. Always remember this, however: contracts (of which a license is a species) are never important when everything goes right, only when something goes wrong. Consider them the legal version of, "hope for the best, plan for the worst."
Paul Tauger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2009, 12:00 AM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 270
Royalty Free - Free music

Some music is available as Free, Royalty-Free.

In most cases, they only ask that you put a music-credit on the final product.
It's my guess that this is what "Used with permission" infers
Be sure to read the T&C
Vince Pachiano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2009, 03:48 AM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 2,261
I'm a big fan of the Creative Commons licensed music at Jamendo. Incredibly good quality.

I've been back to the site recently and they have a Jamendo PRO service set up now. I'm thinking that it's a headache eliminating no-brainer to have a one-stop shop for permissions etc ... and I'd feel better knowing that the artist gets a decent percentage of the money instead of what would drip-filter through from a record company arrangement.

Andrew
Andrew Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2009, 05:13 AM   #14
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Smith View Post
I'm a big fan of the Creative Commons licensed music at Jamendo. Incredibly good quality.

I've been back to the site recently and they have a Jamendo PRO service set up now. I'm thinking that it's a headache eliminating no-brainer to have a one-stop shop for permissions etc ... and I'd feel better knowing that the artist gets a decent percentage of the money instead of what would drip-filter through from a record company arrangement.

Andrew
You'll notice, though, they don't have a license that covers video posted for viewing on vimeo or youtube.

Worthy of note is your common misconception that the "artist" is a signifigant player in the music licensing game. For indys perhaps they sometimes are but most of the time they are virtually irrelevant. Look up the copyright info on the individual tracks in a favourite CD or two and see who actually wrote the music - rarely is it the artist. The copyrights on the music, and the fees for the license to use it in your video (the sync license), are owned by the composer, lyricist, and publisher of the words and melody and it's not often that is the performing artist who records the song or the label that released it that's involved. Then if you want to use a certain artist's recording, the label that paid for the studio time, engineers, etc, etc owns the copyright to the recording - don't they deserve compensation for all their expense incurred in making the recording you wish to use? All too often, the "artists" who performed for the recording are really not much more than employees of the producer. Who owns the copyright to the video you produce (and is entitled to profit from its sale and distribution), you as the producer of the video or the cast you hired to perfom in it? Even if you had big-name actors, they are performing but it's the producer and director that are the film's creators. A lot of music recorded and released commercially, even by name talent, is exactly like that - the artist is hired by the producer and label to perform the music for the recording the producer is creating. It's a "work for hire" owned by the label, the employer, and not the performer, the employee.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 2nd, 2009, 05:49 AM   #15
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 2,261
Hmmm ... I think that headache is coming back now. :-P

I can only hope that the Jamendo model is working well for the CC community.

Andrew
Andrew Smith is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > And Now, For Something Completely Different... > Taking Care of Business

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:12 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network