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Old May 17th, 2005, 11:16 AM   #1
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Production Rates with the XL2

I was wondering, i am composing a price list on day-rates for using the XL2, with the extensive research i have done... a 10 hour day, with a 2 person crew usually comes in at $1400 dollars. This doesn't include dolly's, tracks, cranes and lights...

does this sound fair to every one?

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Old May 17th, 2005, 11:41 AM   #2
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Well, I don't know where that $1400 is going. What exactly are the factors you're adding up? All I can think of is:

Food $10-100

Drinks $10-30 (depends on how thirsty you are and exactly what you're drinking ~_^)

Equipment $0 (Previously purchased)

Electricity $? (Current standard rate)

Time $$$ (Money) =)

Are you renting your XL2 out or something?
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Old May 17th, 2005, 12:16 PM   #3
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Pricing is always a tricky topic to bring up on the boards. Some don't like to disclose, variations in experience & market & equipment make HUGE differences, etc.

However, I think you're pricing yourself just a little high. That price seems a little more in line with a 2-person beta crew. Again, so much of this depends on your experience and what the market will take...if you can get $1400 for a day shoot w 2 person crew for shooting DV...go for it. If not, have them call me. I'll do it for $1100. :-)

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Old May 17th, 2005, 12:23 PM   #4
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You have to take into acount what the shoot is for. If it's a local thing then that's one fee. If you are shooting for a bigger client with bigger distribution, or usage, then you have to factor that into your fee. Bigger job, bigger fee.

For me to show up as a DP is one fee. Anything else on top of that is a rental fee, or expense. I have a basic lighting and grip package, dolly and track which is priced so that I get the rental, but I'm not giving it away either.

For camera rental, if we do use my camera, it will be a better deal than if they went to a rental house. Again, I'm not giving it away either. I look at what the going rate is and charge accordingly.
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Old May 17th, 2005, 01:31 PM   #5
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xl2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Felis
Are you renting your XL2 out or something?
No, we use them on jobs... we own 2 xl2's

just trying to get a feel for pricing, and everything that comes with production.
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Old May 19th, 2005, 10:31 AM   #6
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It sounds a little high but not much. For two people with 2 cameras and associated bits of kit/junk like tripods etc it would be more like $1,000 per day not including expenses (travel and accommodation, we don't charge clients for food!!??)

But it is all relative, if you're good (in terms of shooting and cutting) then charge what you like, people can either pay a premium for good work or not and get, well, not so good work.
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Old May 19th, 2005, 10:44 AM   #7
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My take on this is that camera matters little.

Buying a camera & accessories costs you $5,000. Assuming it is good for 500 hours of use (very conservative (probably more like 2000 hours witha head overhaul in there), the amortized cost of the camera is $10 an hour. Add a factor of 2-3 for overhead, maintenance, etc, and you get a camera cost of $20-25 an hour or $160-200 a day (pretty close to rental rates oddly enough). The rest is all about labor costs, expertise, other equipment, etc. When I go shoot with my consumer handicam, I charge $15-20 less per hour than when I shoot with my DVX. Everything else is the same.
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Old May 19th, 2005, 11:13 AM   #8
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Rental fee is based on 5% of the actual retail cost. Charging your fee relates to your experience, quality and what the market will bear. Camera rental is based on what is in the package. Most usually have a camera, lens, a couple batteries and a few other things. The rest, tripod, head, matte boxe, follow focus, rods, filters, etc. are all added on top of that. Look at rental catalogs and see what th norm is.

Sometimes it does matter what the camera is, if it's the "new hot" camera, rental houses will sometimes charge a little more for it.
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Old May 20th, 2005, 09:47 PM   #9
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I could get a crew of two with an SDX900 for that price. Probably wouldn't pay more than $500 a day to hire an op with an XL2, at least in this market. Realisticaly, I'd probably look to pay $250-$350 per person per day if I was hiring, just because there are so many people out there.
Of course, if I was charging, I'd charge as much as I could get away with. :)
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Old May 21st, 2005, 06:53 AM   #10
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The type of Kit they have is mostly irrelevant since a good photographer with an XL2 will make a sloppy photographer with an SDX900 look foolish or whatever camera gear they may have.

Since the kit you mention is about US$350 - US$400 (US$600 with lens) per day body only to rent (depending on where you are) it is very unlikely you would get a 2 person crew with any kind of skill with that kind of rig for that money. If you can they they are selling themselves cheap or are prepared to spend the next 20 years paying of their investment in the camera.

M.
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Old May 21st, 2005, 03:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin French
The type of Kit they have is mostly irrelevant since a good photographer with an XL2 will make a sloppy photographer with an SDX900 look foolish or whatever camera gear they may have.
That's pretty obvious, isn't it? Assuming that level of skill is equal, I'm going to hire the person whose equipment will give me the highest quality results I can get.

Quote:
Since the kit you mention is about US$350 - US$400 (US$600 with lens) per day body only to rent (depending on where you are) it is very unlikely you would get a 2 person crew with any kind of skill with that kind of rig for that money. If you can they they are selling themselves cheap or are prepared to spend the next 20 years paying of their investment in the camera.
M.
I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass. I'm giving you day rates I've actually paid (and been paid) to experienced camera ops, inlcuding more than a few DVinfo members over the years. I know two very skilled operators with SDX900s who charge $750cdn and $850cdn per day, including the camera, so yes, I could get two for that price. The average day rate for an XL2/FX1/DVX100 camera op in Vancouver is between $250-$500cdn, depending on experience, and including their camera.
Granted the market is flooded here, and may not be where you live. In my market, unless Cassidy had a fantastic demo reel, he would be pricing himself slightly too high at $1400us a day for two ops with XL2's.
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Old May 21st, 2005, 05:37 PM   #12
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To prove my point, here is an ad I copied off Vancouver Craigslist:

Quote:
I am a full service Videographer and Editor based in Edmonds. I use high quality equipment from my cameras (JVC DV5000, Panasonic DVX100a), lighting (arri), audio (sennheiser/shure), and editing (Final Cut Pro/Avid/Premiere). I can make your company shine with a high quality tv commercial with graphics and more. I can capture all the important moments in your wedding with a video that is appealing to the eyes and ears (if only I could capture smells).

So, please contact me now no matter how small or big the job (I have experienced with editing/filming home movies to feature films).

I work well below any industry rates, and I might even work for gas money and a beer/hamburger. Just send me an email, and let me know how I can help you!
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Old May 22nd, 2005, 12:22 PM   #13
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you have to go by local rates and add more $$ depending how good you are compared to the others charging those rates = excellent cameraman always gets a little more then going rate ...

IMO crew has a day rate ..say cameraman at 1000 day .. next is equipment rental and this is where using a XL2 or pani 900 the package rate ( camera & person) will be different between using XL2 or 900 ...
in other words persons day rate should not change with size of camera.
you can find a 2 person crew using XL2 for 100 - 3500 day ..
to some 1400 rate is high and for others it seems low ..
a friend charges 1200 day for him with dvx100 ( includes audio equip) 1400 if beta SP .. that works for his clients and then on the other hand it seems low to me .. just depends if you are working low, med, hi budgets projects and depending on where you are located ..
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Old May 22nd, 2005, 05:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan Couper
To prove my point, here is an ad I copied off Vancouver Craigslist:
I'm not sure that's at all relevant. there is a lot of discussion in Photography circles about Pro's underselling their work and therefore damaging the industry over all for all professionals.

Selling your work cheap is a big mistake, sometimes you have to stick to your guns and charge what you're worth.
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Old May 23rd, 2005, 05:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin French
I'm not sure that's at all relevant. there is a lot of discussion in Photography circles about Pro's underselling their work and therefore damaging the industry over all for all professionals.

Selling your work cheap is a big mistake, sometimes you have to stick to your guns and charge what you're worth.
It is an example of a market flooded with camera operators. I completely agree with you about charging what you are worth, but if you competition decides to undercut by 30%, eventually you are going to have to pay your bills somehow. I'm in the same boat.
Part of this I attribute to cheap camera equipment. If you had to pay $5000 minimum for a d-slr, you'd think twice about charging $20/hr. I'd love it if XL2s and DVX100s started at $15,000, it would cut the number of camera operators by 75%, reducing competition, and keeping prices up.
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