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Taking Care of Business
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Old July 24th, 2006, 08:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
So, does anyone think that I am being unreasonable?
No. He was trying to suck you in, and who knows if you would have received any money at the end.
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Old July 24th, 2006, 10:48 PM   #17
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hmm.. finders fees...

i usually allocate 5-10% of the final payment (not the retainer) for this, however usually when this happens we take into account the future of the relationship. ie if we have both refered work back and forth, then we dont pay a finders fee.

If ur friend was smart, he'd hire you outright for the 2 days, then claim those costs back on tax as an expense
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Old July 25th, 2006, 02:52 PM   #18
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I don't think you were being unreasonable. I also, don't think he was being unreasonable.

I think the mistake was that he told you how much he was getting for the job. What he should have done was negotiate with you by getting your price for the job, then you would have been happy because you got what you wanted, he would have been happy with his cut.

However, it does sound as if there was some potential misrepresentation on his part. He sold a client a job, presumably under his name, then he does a switch? If there were a problem who would the client go to? You, or your friend?

Hopefully you guys are still friends with no hard feelings.
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Old July 25th, 2006, 03:10 PM   #19
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The wedding video business operates like most other consumer service businesses (Collision Repair, etc.): $60/Hour billed to client. Employees are paid $8 to $15 hour. The rest is overhead and profit for the owner. When someone is accustomed to doing business a certain way with certain mark-ups, it's probably hard for them to accept a smaller margin by paying a seasoned professional a fair rate.
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Old July 27th, 2006, 01:23 PM   #20
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I hate people like this... if you cant do a job, refer it to me and I will return the favor. I dont care about having middlemen in high places, that is fine but LET ME BUDGET IT. I do commercials all the time for $5k that the end client is paying $20K for. I dont care because I budget it at $5K and make good money and the middleman production company has to deal with the client, not me. They collect the money, have the high end decks for mastering, have a building, employees, etc.

What I simply cannot stand is another freelancer expecting a cut. If someone contacted me and offerred $1000 for shooting on a day when I cannot do it, I will hook one of my buddies up, the thought of taking a cut for nothing is ludicrous in this situation. I suspect I refer away $5k to $8k of work per month but it all comes around!



ash =o)
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Old July 28th, 2006, 11:00 AM   #21
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School of Hard Knocks (or is it "Thick Heads"?)

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Originally Posted by Mark Bournes
Here's a way to break it down for your friend. 2 days of shooting @ $500 per day with your own gear is a bargain. $1000.00

Editing time $100.00 per finished minute. A 10 minute dvd for the client = $1000.00

$50.00 per hour for Script revisions, meeting with clients and phone and scheduling time. You figure a good 10 hours of that = $500.00

If you include gas, meals and so on, tack on another $100.00

Total
$2,600. That's half and that's reasonable.


Mark
From a relative newbie's perspective, this strikes me as the fairest deal. Doing ALL the work for half - or less - of the $$ strikes me as "being taken advantage of." Being somewhat new to the business side of this, I admit I work for very little $$, but I'm still trading experience & exposure for little/no pay.

My worst example: was asked to serve as 3rd cam on a shoot that spanned 1 night of rehearsal, 2 nights of performance, and approx. 12 hours total time. Idea was to give me experience and prove to producer what I could do, with understanding my tapes would only be used if 2nd cam's weren't up to snuff. After shooting, was told my work was more useable than 2nd cam, but the client didn't have budget for a DVD of the full performance. Bottom line, after being told my work was better than 2nd cam and that I'd get about $400, I ended up with nothing...a somewhat expensive newbie lesson. I did get my tapes back, but only after about 2 weeks, so I'm not sure they weren't used or copied before then. I guess I gotta start taking on more by myself and learn the ropes the hard way.
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Our actions are based on our own experience and knowledge. Thus, no one is ever totally right, nor totally wrong. We simply act from what we "know" to be true, based on that experience and knowledge. Beyond that, we pose questions to others.
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Old July 28th, 2006, 03:14 PM   #22
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Yeah it's very weird that someone would quote a price based on thin air assumptions knowing he can't do the job himself and then later on offer a fellow videographer "some" compensation for doing it in his place (and I assume he'd be taking credit and copyright) based on what he'd like to get out of it, regardless of said videographer's rates.

Doesn't seem like much of a friend to me, at least not a business savy one. I'd stay away from such "partnership".

Or maybe like it has been suggested you just quote him based on your rates for a work-for-hire type relationship and let him assume risks and financial responsability of getting it done (that and dealing with the client's mood swings and indecisions).
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 09:48 AM   #23
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I think what happened is your(so called)Buddy had already spent the money, in his mind, and had a hard time letting go of that thought. Fact is, sounds like you guys had agreed on a price so if you felt fairly compensated with what you guys had originally decided on- taking into account the amount of work that you were committing to- then you can't really change that. Even if he is getting more, in your opinion, than he deserves. If he didn't land the gig in the first place neither of you would be getting any richer. Of course we haven't heard his side of the argument either.
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Wells
The wedding video business operates like most other consumer service businesses (Collision Repair, etc.): $60/Hour billed to client. Employees are paid $8 to $15 hour. The rest is overhead and profit for the owner.
More like most couples aren't willing to pay a professional price for a wedding video, so the owner's lucky to end up making $8-15/hour while camera operators are charging $50+/hour. It's a wacky business unless you're fortunate enough to find the handful of clients willing to spend real money.
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Old August 3rd, 2006, 12:37 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw
More like most couples aren't willing to pay a professional price for a wedding video, so the owner's lucky to end up making $8-15/hour while camera operators are charging $50+/hour. It's a wacky business unless you're fortunate enough to find the handful of clients willing to spend real money.
That's true, probably comes from the fact a lot of videographers with limited skills and cheap prices have contributed to forge an image of unprofessionalism and iffy quality throughout the wedding industry.

That's why I don't do weddings at all. I don't feel like educating the client and constantly fighting prejudices while letting him know that no, uncle Bob can't do the same thing with his consumer cam for a 100 bucks, is worth it to me.

I prefer the cold but professional and well paid environement of corporate videography (no, I have no soul).
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Old October 3rd, 2006, 09:54 AM   #26
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He shouldn't have told you that he was making 5K in the first place. That was his biggest mistake, and it's none of your business anyway.

When hiring a subcontractor, I give them the details and then allow them to give me a quote for their services. I never let them speak directly to my client. They are working for ME, not my client.

I would never "hand-over" a gig to someone. You should always maintain control of the situation by acting as the liaison between the client and the contractor.

If contact is necessary between my client & my contractor, I ask that my contractors not hand out any business cards or sell themselves as an independent production company. I have already been on both sides of the fence with similar situations and it's really uncomfortable if not handled honestly & ethically.

Bottom line is that you are being offered a job, quote him what you feel the job is worth.
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Old October 3rd, 2006, 10:13 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Scott Jaco
He shouldn't have told you that he was making 5K in the first place. That was his biggest mistake, and it's none of your business anyway.

When hiring a subcontractor, I give them the details and then allow them to give me a quote for their services. I never let them speak directly to my client. They are working for ME, not my client.

I would never "hand-over" a gig to someone. You should always maintain control of the situation by acting as the liaison between the client and the contractor.

If contact is necessary between my client & my contractor, I ask that my contractors not hand out any business cards or sell themselves as an independent production company. I have already been on both sides of the fence with similar situations and it's really uncomfortable if not handled honestly & ethically.

Bottom line is that you are being offered a job, quote him what you feel the job is worth.
Wow, somebody woke up on the wrong side of the coffin.

Anyway, the reason that I knew the price he quoted, was that before he got the job (and before he asked me to do it); he asked my opinion on what to charge the client (my suggestion was higher than the 5K).

Now, I understand that you wouldn't hand over the job to someone else, but we aren't talking about you. I knew the price beforehand, and he DID want to hand the project over - from pre-production through final distribution.
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Old October 3rd, 2006, 10:30 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ray Lane
Wow, somebody woke up on the wrong side of the coffin.

Anyway, the reason that I knew the price he quoted, was that before he got the job (and before he asked me to do it); he asked my opinion on what to charge the client (my suggestion was higher than the 5K).

Now, I understand that you wouldn't hand over the job to someone else, but we aren't talking about you. I knew the price beforehand, and he DID want to hand the project over - from pre-production through final distribution.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound angry. This whole situation is strange to me. This friend completely misrepresented himself to a client by offering services that he had no idea how to provide, so much to the point that he is willing to hand the gig completely over to you. For the sake of your friends reputation, he should learn when to say NO.
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