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Taking Care of Business
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Old April 21st, 2006, 07:40 PM   #616
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Hey, what a coincidence! Except mine is 40ish man who tells me I'm a great DP but then won't take my advice half the time. Crazy world.
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 01:48 AM   #617
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doing the job

Sometimes you're just moved to do the work. I've been blessed, I love the work and I'm making good money in Africa. There are alot of good causes here and though it would be impossible to even consider some of the requests to make a project for free, I get to give back and produce a good story. It does usually involve beginning to end. I have been taken in by one opportunist, but it didn't stop me from getting involved with other non or small paying jobs. My point, I work for the art, the fun and satifaction; when you achieve the art (ability) you get payed, at times very well paid. I am at a place where I can also contribute to things I like to do. I only recently joined this forum and have immediately attained a lot of appreciation for the connection. I am a fair distance from being able to participate in our industry and don't miss some of the idiocy you guys have to mull through. Originally from Texas circa 2002.

Rand
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 10:24 AM   #618
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Yes, I know, we're all very crass here. Perhaps someone'll be moved to take on this, then:

"Digiral Film maker : must be trained college age girl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: talent@3iying.com
Date: 2006-04-23, 7:54AM EDT



hi.

Join a team of girls who are making history in media. www.3iying.com
we are looking for our digital film team made

you will help script commercials, then shoot, edit them in final cut

they will go to some of the largest companies in the world
the target of all our films is the girl market.

summer gig to start.


no -- it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests"


I imagine this as having been written by two thirteen year old girls.

And daddy found another:

Freelance Cameraman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: president@allinbroadcasting.com
Date: 2006-04-22, 10:01PM CDT


All in Broadcasting is looking for Cameraman to video amateur sporting events. Cameraman will have to have a regular commercial or consumer camera and record to Hi8 or Mini DV format. We will pay $40 per event that is assigned plus we will provide necessary blank tapes and mailing cost. We also will pay $20 per event for travel and admission fees an event. Email president@allinbroadcasting.com only if you are interested.


Compensation: $40 per event

no -- Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.

no -- Please, no phone calls about this job!

no -- Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.

no -- Reposting this message elsewhere is NOT OK.
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 11:04 AM   #619
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Josh have you looked at
www.3iying.com
website?

They seem to be of some note with significant business trade press. They're appeal is to 15 year old girls though. It would make sense that they want to attract college age girls (18-21) who can think and understand what a 15 wants to buy and why.
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Old April 23rd, 2006, 01:15 PM   #620
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That's different then, isn't it? I guess in my eagerness to win the trip to Hawaii, I've been to quick to post every now and then.
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Old April 24th, 2006, 03:17 PM   #621
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How BAD can it get?!

Is this really a sign of the hourly rates businesses can get away with?! Take a look at this very legit MAJOR Non Profit which includes NY Board Of Education Chancellor on its Board of Directors.
http://www.nycchartercenter.org/
and this
http://www.nycenet.edu/OurSchools/Re...on/default.htm
$15-$25 Depending on Experience and of course Camera, tripod, mics, light kit must be supplied by you!!!!!!!
This ain't no fly-by-night craigslist poster


Videographer Opt. Available (p/t) for project in Charter Schools

Reply to: gigs-154065268@craigslist.org
Date: 2006-04-24, 11:25AM EDT


Videographer Opt. Available (p/t) for project in Charter Schools - Must have own equipment.

New York City Center for Charter School Excellence

Looking for an experienced Videographer who has own equipment with Tripod, Mic, Lights, Access to Editing facility, etc. Documentary film experience highly desireable.

Project is to produce a training video that documents Best Practices in Charter Schools in New York City. Seeking immediate start, with editing and post-production concluding in May. p/t, based on filming schedule.

Please contact via email and provide a resume, video clip, or web site that will give us a better idea about you and your skills. We need someone professional, responsible, and comfortable with young people. Compensation is $15-$25/hr, based on experience.

The mission of the New York City Center for Charter School Excellence is to stimulate the supply of high quality charter schools and support ongoing student excellence in all NYC charter schools, impacting the effectiveness of public education. As an independent nonprofit, the Charter Center is an advocate, bridge and catalyst for the achievement of academic and operational success and sustainability of all NYC charter schools for each young person.

no -- it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Compensation: $15-$25/hr, based on experience
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Old April 24th, 2006, 07:14 PM   #622
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Yeah, I saw that. Didn't post, though. How much would you charge an hour? If you were the kinda guy that charged hourly?
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Old April 24th, 2006, 08:16 PM   #623
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At least they're paying $25 an hour!

Here's one from today offering $25 (total!) to SHOOT AND EDIT a 3 minute segment using, of course, your own equipment:






Reply to: jannscottlive@hotmail.com
Date: 2006-04-24, 12:46PM MDT


Digital video editor for local magazine TV show series on CET-5, Boulder 54, and www.BoulderChannel.com. Editing 3 minute packages and effects in a timely fashion. Must have own equipment and the ability to record images to tape or DVD. Some web design skills, camera shooting and network TV experience preferred. Some driving may be required.

We are looking for nice upbeat professionals who understand the 18-34 year old market.

Part-time.
$25 per 3 minute segment.

Summer internships available, no pay, great for resume.

Please call 303-447-8531 and also email resume and work examples to jannscottlive@hotmail.com.

* Job location is Boulder/Denver
* Compensation: $25 per 3 minute segment
* This is a part-time job.
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Old April 24th, 2006, 08:27 PM   #624
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And they want you to update their website too, and probably their client's as well.
__________________
www.SmokeWagonLeather.us
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Old April 24th, 2006, 08:35 PM   #625
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Ha! I missed that!
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Old April 24th, 2006, 08:49 PM   #626
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Josh, I'm not shy about discussing rates. I respond to posts like that. I told them I could do $62.50/hr with light kit (normally higher) and might be able to cut corners if it's a large project or "bulk" contract. AND MY RATES ARE LOW!Once you need to bring a light kit you need to use a car and then there's the cost of parking (expensive in NYC) and long commute time to shoots. I do "starving artist" demo reels for more per hour then they offer.

Patrick, it's another case of a public access producer claiming they're "TV." Boulder 54 is Community TV. If such producers didn't make their shows appear to be "commercial" entities instead of public access they wouldn't look so stupid.
http://www.commtv.org/
http://www.btv54.com/

--it was councilmember Robin Bohannan’s motion to place the station’s video equipment – owned by the City – into storage for two years that almost won the evening. Council determined that this would give a self-funded group an opportunity to step forward. One did! Happy ending (for now ...)--
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Old April 24th, 2006, 09:37 PM   #627
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Man, I'm sorry. I keep forgetting about NYC. Every time I get into a "discussion" with your or Emory, I forget that not everywhere is as cheap as Houston (by a long shot) in terms of standard of living. If I lived in NYC, I damn sure wouldn't even own a car.
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Old April 25th, 2006, 10:08 AM   #628
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Try carrying Camera, Tripod, light kit on subway? Try taking subway at 2AM with lots of gear? Try taking public transportation to a shoot in the suburbs where location is not near public transportation.

I can do camera and tripod on subway, bus, cab but once you add even a small lowel 3pt light kit it's not easy.

Once they ask for light kit it means car AND an assistant (to deal with parking, etc). Given the travel and hassle, that's why even those (oh the shoot's only an hour) is a half day booking. It's a half day of my time whether the shoot is one hour or three hours.

The only exceptions are when I can shoot within walking distance from home/office . . . often that's for grabbing a shot for an edit in progress.

That's why the $15-$25 is OUTRAGEOUS especially for low budget PROFESSIONAL Not-For-Profit.

Transit workers, sanitation workers, teachers get paid as much or more and they DON'T have to own/rent $15,000 worth of gear . . . for a simple DV/DVCAM set up AND they get healthcare and pension benefits!

I think the fundemental problem we're faced with in this industry is that you can actually get SIGNIFICANT TALENT for $15-$25/hr!!!! and it hurts the entire industry . . . which is why corporate clients get away with offering such low rates.

Take a student with 2-4 years of school training in Shooting, Editing, Motion Graphics. Those are real tangible, marketable skills. While they may not have "professional" experience they may have skills and talents readily visible on their demo reels.

Out of College they may still be living at home, using the computer mom/pop bought them for school, software bought at Education prices. They buy an HDV camera on their new credit card and pay it off at $50/month as their only real life expense. At $15/hr for 40/hr a week, they're making $2400 a month, can even slip their now proud mom/pop $200-$300 a month for living at home. After 6 months/1 year they have a resume that includes corporate clients and more stuff for their demo reels. They might have $10,000 in the bank at the end of the year and can risk moving out and buying more gear.

They then discover they quickly can't live on $25/hr on their own. They raise their rates and maybe get replaced by the next young gun. In another year, they're hit with computer and software upgrades expenses. They end up trying to rent their camera at $50 a day or sell it on Ebay as they try to get a paying "job." They may go out of business but the "clients" know there's an unending stream of replacable $15/hr talent coming out of the schools.

A major employer just has to post on craigslist to find one skilled and talented kid in ten responses to pay $15/hr with no benefits at all and keep doing that as each generation is replaced by the next.

Only those potential clients that want to see real world experience (you can actually get "talented" people without that) and maybe expect you to use higher end equipment (and that gear is really not needed for many projects). . . expect and are willing to pay more for the intangibles that come with experience (speed and the ability to trouble shoot/problem solve)

Some of us kid ourselves saying the low ballers are getting poor quality for their $15/hr jobs or $200 projects but that's NOT the case in many situations.

Sorry for the bleak picture but this is what 25 years in the biz has tought me. The good news is that SOME clients really do appreciate experience.

It's NOT the cheap gear that's hurting the industry at all. It's the cheap but good quality talent willing to work at unlivable low wages for an adult.

Some of the Ridiculous Job Offers are from dreamers but many are from "smart" business people who get exactly what they're looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bass
Man, I'm sorry. I keep forgetting about NYC. Every time I get into a "discussion" with your or Emory, I forget that not everywhere is as cheap as Houston (by a long shot) in terms of standard of living. If I lived in NYC, I damn sure wouldn't even own a car.
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Old April 25th, 2006, 10:12 AM   #629
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So, then, we have to stop saying "you get what you pay for," and just start staying "you're an asshole. Hope you're proud of yourself."
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Old April 25th, 2006, 10:44 AM   #630
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Right on Josh!

We have this looong thread as proof. Hey if it were just the dreamers saying "wana make my hit movie" or my "tv pilot" (for public access) it really wouldn't be a big deal. We've seen a good sampling of posts on this list that it's businesses, tv/cable stations, production companies looking for (and probably finding) quality cheap labor (often WITH YOUR GEAR INCLUDED).

How do we increase the base wages? Maybe that's for another thread but I wonder how many of us on this thread would jump to that one.

BTW, I've certainly seen articles about this is various video trade publications (DV Magazine for example) in the last couple of years. It's a known issue. Talent underpricing. Their conclusion always seems to be "don't do it" but that doesn't work since as long as even one in ten accept the low wages that's what the clients will try for (and get).

I'd phrase the issue as "cost plus." If people simply charged for the fair market value for a day's use of their gear then whether a newbie who charges $15/hr for labor vs the experienced person for $100/hr would be more realistic.

Example. Newbie charges client going rate for use of their Sony PD-150 (Panasonic DVX-100 or Avid DV Express or Final Cut Pro plus computer) and then tacked on their rate. Shooting with a PD-150 for a day might be equal to a $200 rental (varies by market of course - don't forget mic and tripod and light kit are extra) which is $25/hr. Then a newbies base rate is a more realistic $40/hr ($15/hr labor). . . . You want me to work on your "dream" for free. Sure I work for free but my camera will cost you $200 for day (since I pay the credit card bill and need to maintain the thing now and then as well as insure it).

If people charged for the gear ALWAYS, the base rate would jump. Alas, newbies don't think that way. It's called business sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bass
So, then, we have to stop saying "you get what you pay for," and just start staying "you're an asshole. Hope you're proud of yourself."
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