Two Clips: Prep For Film Look With Mini-DV at DVinfo.net

John Threat · May 23rd, 2003, 06:38 PM

Here are two clips from a short that I am preparing to shoot called "The Dental Assistant." They are large AVI files that are encoded in the DIVX Format (http://www.divx.com)

These clips haven't been processed beyond being color desaturated and a few points decrease in Gamma. Both takes are with a Canon XL1[s] , 16x Manual lens, set at F1.6 and in Frame Mode.

10 MB - Pam - The Dental Assistant's Friend.
http://www.mediathreat.com/tda/Pharah.AVI

36 MB - Simone - The Dental Assistant
http://www.mediathreat.com/tda/picku...ka/Shamika.AVI

What would you think when you saw these clips? Would you think instantly that it was video? mini-DV? 8mm? Film? What can i do to enhance the process in post for the footage to look more like film.

Rob Lohman · May 26th, 2003, 04:57 AM

The first clip is only 416 KB large and is corrupt. I'm downloading
the larger one at this moment....

Rob Lohman · May 26th, 2003, 05:32 AM

The clip looks okay, but I would have gone for a different
background....

Kevin Burnfield · May 28th, 2003, 07:56 AM

I'd go either way on the clips but I'd buy that it was film, especially in B/W.

You may want to look at filter like a ProMist. That'll smooth it out a little bit more and make Frame mode look even better.

Also be sure and consider (specially since you have the manual lens) DOF when shooting. Zoom in a bit and set your appature as open as you can (even if you have to add an ND filter) to get a depth of field for some of your shots.

The number one "trick" of shooting video so it looks like film is shooting it like it really was film.

Kevin Burnfield · June 13th, 2003, 09:33 PM

John,

have you thought about going with a color filter on your camera to help the tones and textures for B/W ??

I don't know why I didn't think of this before but it's a practice in B/W photography to use a color filter (like a yellow, or green or orange) on the lens to bring out B/W tones.

You might just try it.

I can't remember what the different colors do for B/W but I'm sure it's out there on the web in some site for B/W photography.

Imran Zaidi · June 13th, 2003, 11:35 PM

In black and white film photography, as you go darker from yellow to orange to red, it hides more blemishes, and increases contrast.

If you've ever seen those 'film noir' type black and white images, chances are they've been done with very fast film (way more than 800 speed) and with a red filter.

Basically, these filters do for black and white what polarizing filters do for color. For example, bringing out definition in clouds vs. sky.

Martin Munthe · June 14th, 2003, 05:48 AM

First of guys, you have to view video on a TV or broadcast monitor to judge if something looks like film. Computer screens does not show things in 50 or 60Hz interlaced. And usually the gamma is all wrong on CRT's or LCD's. So if the clip is interlaced or progressive there is no way to tell on a computer screen. If you post clips I would suggest posting a DV stream. That is the simplest way to do it. Most of us can output a DV clip to a TV (I guess). A DivX or MP4 stream is all I-frames.

Now over to the clip posted by John: The optics sells this as video right away. It's got to deep focus compared to if you would put a comparable lens on 35mm. And the black and white doesn't look like black and white emulsion. To fool the eye you should give the footage an s-curve range in contrast in stead of the z-curve that is typical for video. You lit this in a very soft manner. Heres an example of a frame I lit using only one KinoFlo fourbank. I did a lot of post work on this to make it less z-curve like.

http://www.dvdforum.nu/images/galler...J7RRDPFMMS.jpg

Zac Stein · June 14th, 2003, 05:56 AM

Martin looks fantastic... tell us more about what you did!

Like the process, what programs.. how it was achieved.

Zac

Martin Munthe · June 14th, 2003, 06:08 AM

We had a pressrelease out the other day. Here's part of it.

http://www.uemedia.com/CPC/article_9492.shtml

We used a PD150, an Optex 16x9 attachment and a very basic lighting kit. This was shot in PAL. The post was done in FCP and AE using the Magic Bullet Suite. Theres so much I could tell you but there is really only one valid piece of knowledge I've discovered: Don't shoot it the way most books and articles tell you. Tey're mostly all wrong. Don't add grain. Don't light it evenly. Don't watch out for overexposed windows (unless the story dictates seeing everything). Don't underexpose abit. Don't shoot for motion blur. etc...

Zac Stein · June 14th, 2003, 06:12 AM

Which magic bullet settings did you use?

Zac

Martin Munthe · June 14th, 2003, 06:32 AM

In this case it's a variation on Berlin but it's first color corrcted in AE and I'm always using several layers of grading with different types of opacity. The modified Berlin is in an adjustment layer above all the others. You have to be pretty advanced in AE to work this way. There's no "push one button" operation here.

And don't forget. The secret is all in the shooting really...

Zac Stein · June 14th, 2003, 06:38 AM

Martin, lucky i used it for like 10 hours each..

But i tell you it is still a lot of trial and error, having a video monitor there is the only way to do it.

Zac

Martin Munthe · June 14th, 2003, 07:24 AM

BTW I like your website Zac.

Zac Stein · June 14th, 2003, 07:36 AM

Thankx, i just wish i had some, if any time to finish it... look for it to take to the waves in the next couple weeks when i finally finish my uni semester!!! YAY

Take my world for it, if you do a masters group project, and get stuck with 2 non english speakers, in an english speaking school, run for your life... i just completed 90% of the project and am now stuck also writing the documentation... ahh the joys of someone working you through uni.. i can only wish. Next semester i will be the spanish exchange student i think, then i can be lazy.

Zac

John Threat · June 16th, 2003, 09:36 AM

I've played with magic bullet a bit, although it's quite powerful and nice, I think a lot of the magic actually can be captured if your footage is shot really well.

I almost always shoot with a NTSC monitor on the set. Magic Bullet often makes the footage look like a well lit scene with a black pro mist filter on it.

It's still a great suite of plugs however and the deinterlacer is nice, but the magic bullet is in your footage.

May 23rd, 2003, 06:38 PM	#1
John Threat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York Posts: 322	Two Clips: Prep For Film Look With Mini-DV Here are two clips from a short that I am preparing to shoot called "The Dental Assistant." They are large AVI files that are encoded in the DIVX Format (http://www.divx.com) These clips haven't been processed beyond being color desaturated and a few points decrease in Gamma. Both takes are with a Canon XL1[s] , 16x Manual lens, set at F1.6 and in Frame Mode. 10 MB - Pam - The Dental Assistant's Friend. http://www.mediathreat.com/tda/Pharah.AVI 36 MB - Simone - The Dental Assistant http://www.mediathreat.com/tda/picku...ka/Shamika.AVI What would you think when you saw these clips? Would you think instantly that it was video? mini-DV? 8mm? Film? What can i do to enhance the process in post for the footage to look more like film.

May 26th, 2003, 04:57 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	The first clip is only 416 KB large and is corrupt. I'm downloading the larger one at this moment.... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 26th, 2003, 05:32 AM	#3
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	The clip looks okay, but I would have gone for a different background.... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

June 14th, 2003, 05:48 AM	#7
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	First of guys, you have to view video on a TV or broadcast monitor to judge if something looks like film. Computer screens does not show things in 50 or 60Hz interlaced. And usually the gamma is all wrong on CRT's or LCD's. So if the clip is interlaced or progressive there is no way to tell on a computer screen. If you post clips I would suggest posting a DV stream. That is the simplest way to do it. Most of us can output a DV clip to a TV (I guess). A DivX or MP4 stream is all I-frames. Now over to the clip posted by John: The optics sells this as video right away. It's got to deep focus compared to if you would put a comparable lens on 35mm. And the black and white doesn't look like black and white emulsion. To fool the eye you should give the footage an s-curve range in contrast in stead of the z-curve that is typical for video. You lit this in a very soft manner. Heres an example of a frame I lit using only one KinoFlo fourbank. I did a lot of post work on this to make it less z-curve like. http://www.dvdforum.nu/images/galler...J7RRDPFMMS.jpg __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

June 14th, 2003, 06:08 AM	#9
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	We had a pressrelease out the other day. Here's part of it. http://www.uemedia.com/CPC/article_9492.shtml We used a PD150, an Optex 16x9 attachment and a very basic lighting kit. This was shot in PAL. The post was done in FCP and AE using the Magic Bullet Suite. Theres so much I could tell you but there is really only one valid piece of knowledge I've discovered: Don't shoot it the way most books and articles tell you. Tey're mostly all wrong. Don't add grain. Don't light it evenly. Don't watch out for overexposed windows (unless the story dictates seeing everything). Don't underexpose abit. Don't shoot for motion blur. etc... __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

May 28th, 2003, 07:56 AM	#4
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	I'd go either way on the clips but I'd buy that it was film, especially in B/W. You may want to look at filter like a ProMist. That'll smooth it out a little bit more and make Frame mode look even better. Also be sure and consider (specially since you have the manual lens) DOF when shooting. Zoom in a bit and set your appature as open as you can (even if you have to add an ND filter) to get a depth of field for some of your shots. The number one "trick" of shooting video so it looks like film is shooting it like it really was film.

June 13th, 2003, 09:33 PM	#5
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	John, have you thought about going with a color filter on your camera to help the tones and textures for B/W ?? I don't know why I didn't think of this before but it's a practice in B/W photography to use a color filter (like a yellow, or green or orange) on the lens to bring out B/W tones. You might just try it. I can't remember what the different colors do for B/W but I'm sure it's out there on the web in some site for B/W photography.

June 13th, 2003, 11:35 PM	#6
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	In black and white film photography, as you go darker from yellow to orange to red, it hides more blemishes, and increases contrast. If you've ever seen those 'film noir' type black and white images, chances are they've been done with very fast film (way more than 800 speed) and with a red filter. Basically, these filters do for black and white what polarizing filters do for color. For example, bringing out definition in clouds vs. sky.

June 14th, 2003, 05:56 AM	#8
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Martin looks fantastic... tell us more about what you did! Like the process, what programs.. how it was achieved. Zac

June 14th, 2003, 06:12 AM	#10
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Which magic bullet settings did you use? Zac

June 14th, 2003, 06:32 AM	#11
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	In this case it's a variation on Berlin but it's first color corrcted in AE and I'm always using several layers of grading with different types of opacity. The modified Berlin is in an adjustment layer above all the others. You have to be pretty advanced in AE to work this way. There's no "push one button" operation here. And don't forget. The secret is all in the shooting really... __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

June 14th, 2003, 06:38 AM	#12
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Martin, lucky i used it for like 10 hours each.. But i tell you it is still a lot of trial and error, having a video monitor there is the only way to do it. Zac

June 14th, 2003, 07:24 AM	#13
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	BTW I like your website Zac. __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

June 14th, 2003, 07:36 AM	#14
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	Thankx, i just wish i had some, if any time to finish it... look for it to take to the waves in the next couple weeks when i finally finish my uni semester!!! YAY Take my world for it, if you do a masters group project, and get stuck with 2 non english speakers, in an english speaking school, run for your life... i just completed 90% of the project and am now stuck also writing the documentation... ahh the joys of someone working you through uni.. i can only wish. Next semester i will be the spanish exchange student i think, then i can be lazy. Zac

June 16th, 2003, 09:36 AM	#15
John Threat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York Posts: 322	I've played with magic bullet a bit, although it's quite powerful and nice, I think a lot of the magic actually can be captured if your footage is shot really well. I almost always shoot with a NTSC monitor on the set. Magic Bullet often makes the footage look like a well lit scene with a black pro mist filter on it. It's still a great suite of plugs however and the deinterlacer is nice, but the magic bullet is in your footage.