Grain animation ? at DVinfo.net

Gints Klimanis · November 24th, 2003, 07:39 PM

Hi,

I'm new to the film look, but I can't help noticing the grain animation on the big screen. Do you feel that this soft edge animation is part of the pleasant look of film ? Some packages offer such grain animation, but it really doesn't look quite right. Have any of you
tried these techniques? Is it a resolution issue in that the grains are just too big on DV resolution ? I'm also wondering if the grain animation simulations aren't particularly good because they have been constrained to finish the job in a particular time. In audio effects, many non-linear operations are calculated on over-sampled data, thus reducing aliasing artifacts. I am guessing this is a good explanation for why film still has that soft edge look even *after* going back to video.

Don Berube · November 24th, 2003, 09:03 PM

Check out Grain Surgery
http://www.visinf.com/gs/ae/

Free Demo.

- don

Gints Klimanis · November 24th, 2003, 09:35 PM

Thanks for the link. It looks Grain Surgery offers much control over the grain animation. I'll download the demo and check it out.
Good antialiasing on grain animation for video-rate image processing is still probably too CPU-expensive for today's computers. From rough calculations, it seems like the stuff would
run at roughly 1/10 frame/second on today's fastest PC. Video-rate digital signal processing used to be impossible. Almost there ...

Robert Knecht Schmidt · November 24th, 2003, 10:41 PM

I've had success with discreet's grain matching tools (combustion, inferno).

Michael Robinson · November 25th, 2003, 08:51 PM

A tip I remember from the Meyers AE book--

One of the reasons software noise/grain filters look so muddled or different on NTSC/PAL is due to the pre-existing low resolution the material is sourced at. They suggest uprezzing your footage (doubling or tripling the resolution, depending on what you like) and then applying the noise/grain to that, then shrink it back down to DV output resolution and it should look a bit more natural on playback. When shrinking it down, the larger grain should appear a bit finer (is the logic I think). I hope this helps.

November 24th, 2003, 07:39 PM	#1
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Grain animation ? Hi, I'm new to the film look, but I can't help noticing the grain animation on the big screen. Do you feel that this soft edge animation is part of the pleasant look of film ? Some packages offer such grain animation, but it really doesn't look quite right. Have any of you tried these techniques? Is it a resolution issue in that the grains are just too big on DV resolution ? I'm also wondering if the grain animation simulations aren't particularly good because they have been constrained to finish the job in a particular time. In audio effects, many non-linear operations are calculated on over-sampled data, thus reducing aliasing artifacts. I am guessing this is a good explanation for why film still has that soft edge look even after going back to video.

November 24th, 2003, 09:03 PM	#2
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	Check out Grain Surgery http://www.visinf.com/gs/ae/ Free Demo. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

November 24th, 2003, 10:41 PM	#4
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	I've had success with discreet's grain matching tools (combustion, inferno). __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

November 24th, 2003, 09:35 PM	#3
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Thanks for the link. It looks Grain Surgery offers much control over the grain animation. I'll download the demo and check it out. Good antialiasing on grain animation for video-rate image processing is still probably too CPU-expensive for today's computers. From rough calculations, it seems like the stuff would run at roughly 1/10 frame/second on today's fastest PC. Video-rate digital signal processing used to be impossible. Almost there ...

November 25th, 2003, 08:51 PM	#5
Michael Robinson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 40	A tip I remember from the Meyers AE book-- One of the reasons software noise/grain filters look so muddled or different on NTSC/PAL is due to the pre-existing low resolution the material is sourced at. They suggest uprezzing your footage (doubling or tripling the resolution, depending on what you like) and then applying the noise/grain to that, then shrink it back down to DV output resolution and it should look a bit more natural on playback. When shrinking it down, the larger grain should appear a bit finer (is the logic I think). I hope this helps.