Shooting in frame mode at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Special Interest Areas > Techniques for Independent Production

Techniques for Independent Production
The challenges of creating Digital Cinema and other narrative forms.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 22nd, 2002, 07:45 AM   #1
Capt. Quirk
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia
Posts: 3,596
Shooting in frame mode

Everybody seems to like frame mode, and it sounds like a good idea for sharper frames. But when I have shot some footage, it looks jerky with ghostlike artifacts. Where am I going astray?
Thanks
K. Forman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22nd, 2002, 10:57 AM   #2
_redone_
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 224
the only thing i can notice when shoot frame is the somewhat "jitter" when the camera pans too fast,,this is the only fualt I have noticed.
__________________
Adam Lawrence
eatdrink Media
Las Vegas NV
www.eatdrinkmedia.com
Adam Lawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22nd, 2002, 11:15 AM   #3
Retired DV Info Net Almunus
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 6,943
Yes, quick camera movements will produce a strobing effect in frame mode, as will slow shutter speeds.
__________________
Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission.

Hey, you don't have enough stuff!
Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really!

See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com
Ken Tanaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22nd, 2002, 12:13 PM   #4
Hawaiian Shirt Mogul
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: northern cailfornia
Posts: 1,261
frame mode is LESS sharp then interlace ( approx 20%) .. true progressive has more resolution then interlace video

IMO 30fps frame mode has little less stobing then when you watch FILM at 24fps on the big screen ...

next time you are at the movies notice the jitter when camera pans at 24fps ... the same distance panned at 30fps will be less jittery ...

strange that nobody complains about the jerkyness of FILM at 24fps on the big screen ??
Don Donatello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22nd, 2002, 03:58 PM   #5
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,727
I do! :) To be honest I've only really started noticing it in the last year or so. Maybe it's the type of movies I've been seeing, I dunno. But now I see those long pans and the thing is jerky as hell ;) One thing though, when the camera does small, slower pans it doesn't seem that bad, but when I try and do something like that with an XL1s in frame mode, it still seems a lot jerky.Is there some sort of motion blur or something?
Aaron Koolen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 22nd, 2002, 05:51 PM   #6
Hawaiian Shirt Mogul
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: northern cailfornia
Posts: 1,261
i always shoot in frame mode at 1/60 sec ( unless i want FX of stutter) ...

on film projected at 24fps - they use a 3 bladed shutter that spins in front of the frame so the the 24fps is broken up into 72 flickers perhaps that gives illusion of it being smoother then it really is ????
Don Donatello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23rd, 2002, 02:47 AM   #7
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 290
Most working projectors today have a two bladed shutter. There are a few that have 3 bladed shutters, however.
Joe Redifer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 23rd, 2002, 07:38 PM   #8
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
As I understand it another difference between 24fps film and frame mode is that typically film cameras use a diagonal shutter, which is specifically designed to control the otherwise jerkey movements that might arise.

Interesting to me is that there is substantial difference in the frame mode of the gl1 and the xl1s relative to this issue. I find almost any horizontal camera (or subject) movement causes unacceptable strobing of the movement on the Gl1. The xl1s is barely objectionable even with the quickest movements. Initially I thought this was because of the 1/60 sec maximum shutter speed of the Gl1, feeling that at 1/30 on the xl1 was introducing a small amount of blur that softened the jumpiness. But I've done some comparisons on the xl1s, and to my eyes it is actually smoother at 1/60 than at 1/30. I have no idea why.
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2002, 09:40 AM   #9
ErikFilmcrew
 
Posts: n/a
An importent point!


Many find frame mode strobing when recording (as the look in to the LCD-eyepiece).

Keep in mind that all LCD screens (I know of) updates the picture slower and blurs in motion. Thats why LCD monitors are bad for computer games.

So if anyone thinks that frame mode is strobing and hasn't watched it in post on an ordinary monitor. I suggest that they do that first.

Then also, if the frame mode is used for film look, the brightness is recommended to be decreased and contrast increased. These two factors are also smothing out the strobe.


Have in mind that I use XL1 Pal and can not speak for Ntsc.


Regards,


Erik T
  Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2002, 12:38 PM   #10
Hawaiian Shirt Mogul
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: northern cailfornia
Posts: 1,261
"typically film cameras use a diagonal shutter, which is specifically designed to control the otherwise jerkey movements that might arise"

i do remember back in college .. i was doing a project will alot of panning and the arri was coming out with too much strobe effect .. doing research i found that there are vertical shutters ( from top to bottom of film gate -frame) and horizontal shutters (from right to left across gate -frame) ..

the arri S and bolex had vertical shutters ... the eclair NPR had a horizontal shutter and the pans looked much smoother .. however tilt up/down were much smoother using the arri S with vertical shutter ..
Don Donatello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 29th, 2002, 12:56 PM   #11
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Luis Obispo CA
Posts: 1,189
diagonal shutters

I have no experience with film cameras, my comment came from an American Cinematographer article on HBO's Band of Brothers, where they talked about switching the diagonal shutter out for a vertical (horizontal?)shutter in the battle scenes to give them a stuttery, choppy look. This effect was also used in Saving Private Ryan, for whatever its worth.
Barry Goyette is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Special Interest Areas > Techniques for Independent Production

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:59 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network