need film look basics (with PAL footage) at DVinfo.net

Adi Head · October 9th, 2004, 02:04 PM

hi. i have a 1:50 min. video piece, shot in PAL (25 f/sec), edited with vegas 5.0.

now i want to give it less of a "video look" and more of a "film look".

i did a search and couldn't find a thread that gives the basics, for someone who doesn't really understand what exactly de-interlacing does, or what progressive scanning is... (just some terms i came across).

what i am most interested in is how to manipulize the motion (for example, someone walking) so that it looks less "video-like" and more like how motion looks in film.

would be happy to get tips in color correction as well.

thank you.

Kevin Burnfield · October 10th, 2004, 07:22 PM

Other then camera specific advice, best advice is to shoot it like film.

Plan your shots, move your camera with a dolly and or jib. Don't do shaky-cam shots. Learn everything you can about cinematography. The basics of film are the same basics of vid when it comes to shot composition and construction.

Plan your lighting. Learn film lighting.

Learn about filters and what they can and can't do for you. They can't fix everything but a combo of good lighting and knowing what filters work for specific shots will do amazing things for you.

The best advice, specifically on a short film, is to know EVERY SINGLE shot inside and out. Know how you are getting into that shot (cut? dissolve? fade in?) and how you are getting out of it.

search around here and you will find all this info.

Which editing software are you using? that will determine color correction but good tips are:

use a slate with at least black, mid and white bars on it or even better shoot a chip chart or equivalent with each and every shot. I use a slate that has colors across the top and the BMW at the bottom.

WHITE BALANCE. Know it, live it, never shoot unless you have done it.

Steffen Werske · October 11th, 2004, 05:11 AM

Hi Guys

If you use Vegas, then try Magic Bullet Editors.
This software is REALLY amazing and very easy to use.

With the 50 filters you could get a look that looks really
different. The 299$ are the best invest someone could make.

It includes White Diffusion and Black Diffusion filters.
Soft Skin Filters and many color tempareture filters.

You can adjust every filter the way you want andcombine
it with other filters.
That means you have the full control over your footage.
If you use a diffusion filter on the set then your footage
is manipulated. Maybe not the way you wanted it if you´re not
very familar with these filters .

I used this plug in for my last short movie.
All the audience thought i spent tousands of Euro for my movie.
But i spent only 50 Euro(Actors and team worked for free)
and used the Magic Bullet Editors software.
So, try it for yourself.

Greetings from Steffen

Kevin Burnfield · October 11th, 2004, 06:06 AM

Actually, that software is available for almost all the major NLE packages like Final Cut Pro, AVID or Premiere... BUT

Post production software won't do a darn thing for you if you shoot it like someone's home video.

Film look software can only do so much---- you have to make HOW you shoot it look like film

Doug Turner · October 12th, 2004, 06:43 PM

Fair points Kevin, but Adi says the footage has already been shot. There are plenty of books out there on film language which you should check out before your next shoot - once you know your stuff you can make a crap 1 CCD DV cam look professional.

Another thing often overlooked is that you should EDIT like it's a film... don't be tempted by dissolves, 3D swivelling boxes, wipes and picture-in-picture unless it's a wedding or skating video!

De-interlacing is very important to get that 'not video look'! The video you shot is probably 50i and NOT 25fps, 50i means 50 fields per second interlaced. Basically, every other line of the picture is updated 50 times a second - all to do with CRT sets... do a search!

Films are 24fps... so you want to get as close to this as possible. All you have to do is to deinterlace your 50i footage in Vegas... you'll then get 25fps footage, which is close enough for it to look filmic.

That's the joy of shooting in PAL - no mucking around with pulldowns from 60i/30fps to 24fps.

Our brains 'see' 24fps as being filmic and 50i as being crap video... easy as that! I dunno why, just does!

Check this article out on how to make your footage filmic in Vegas:

http://vegas.digitalmedianet.com/art...e.jsp?id=22424

Hope some of that's helped... I made a short last year with a miniDV 3CCD JVC, took lots of care lighting and framing... spent an age editing and sound mixing. I used Magic Bullet (in After Effects) to convert to 25fps and to add filters.

My film, "Tender Words", recently won Best Comedy at a festival in the UK and was recently shown at the LA shorts fest last month (was screened with a film shot on super16, and it looked almost as nice, which is good enough for me).

Cheers, Doug.

Adi Head · October 13th, 2004, 02:31 AM

ok. thanks for the replies. i'll check out the magic bullet package.

adi.

Kevin Burnfield · October 13th, 2004, 12:29 PM

sorry doug... for some reason my brain didn't see that past-tense "shot" part.

I either need to stop drinking or drink more.

Dennis Hingsberg · October 14th, 2004, 07:28 AM

Adi,

Please read my post in the XL2 forum: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=32069.

I have used the PAL format extensively (and successfully) to shoot cinematic style films here in North America where the standard format is NTSC.

Adi Head · October 14th, 2004, 12:35 PM

dennis, but i'm in tel aviv, israel. PAL land. so no problem there.

thanks anyway.

Dennis Hingsberg · October 14th, 2004, 12:49 PM

Yes but the post also talks about the process to get 24P from 50i/25fps footage which may be of use to you.

As Doug had mentioned, deinterlacing PAL will go a long way but if quality is of concern to you then use a good deinterlacer like magic bullet which will do more than just interpolate video fields. The built in deinterlacers of software like vegas or premiere do not perform area based deinterlacing which is the best method for retaining maximum resolution. (The reason being only the areas where motion occur are interpolated as opposed to the whole frame)

Let me know if you need any help or have questions.

Adi Head · October 15th, 2004, 03:23 AM

ok. thanks!!

Scott Ellifritt · October 31st, 2004, 11:19 PM

DV film Maker has a software that will either apply the 24 frame "look" or actually transfer your 60i to 24p. You can try the free download at http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm
I didn't see a marked difference with my 60i footage but you might see better results with PAL.

October 9th, 2004, 02:04 PM	#1
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	need film look basics (with PAL footage) hi. i have a 1:50 min. video piece, shot in PAL (25 f/sec), edited with vegas 5.0. now i want to give it less of a "video look" and more of a "film look". i did a search and couldn't find a thread that gives the basics, for someone who doesn't really understand what exactly de-interlacing does, or what progressive scanning is... (just some terms i came across). what i am most interested in is how to manipulize the motion (for example, someone walking) so that it looks less "video-like" and more like how motion looks in film. would be happy to get tips in color correction as well. thank you.

October 11th, 2004, 05:11 AM	#3
Steffen Werske Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hamburg,Germany Posts: 77	Use Magic Bullet Editors for a film look Hi Guys If you use Vegas, then try Magic Bullet Editors. This software is REALLY amazing and very easy to use. With the 50 filters you could get a look that looks really different. The 299$ are the best invest someone could make. It includes White Diffusion and Black Diffusion filters. Soft Skin Filters and many color tempareture filters. You can adjust every filter the way you want andcombine it with other filters. That means you have the full control over your footage. If you use a diffusion filter on the set then your footage is manipulated. Maybe not the way you wanted it if you´re not very familar with these filters . I used this plug in for my last short movie. All the audience thought i spent tousands of Euro for my movie. But i spent only 50 Euro(Actors and team worked for free) and used the Magic Bullet Editors software. So, try it for yourself. Greetings from Steffen

October 14th, 2004, 07:28 AM	#8
Dennis Hingsberg Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,055	Adi, Please read my post in the XL2 forum: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=32069. I have used the PAL format extensively (and successfully) to shoot cinematic style films here in North America where the standard format is NTSC. __________________ Blog: www.hingsberg.com Ultimate Exposure Guides for FS5/F7S/F5/F55

October 14th, 2004, 12:49 PM	#10
Dennis Hingsberg Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,055	Yes but the post also talks about the process to get 24P from 50i/25fps footage which may be of use to you. As Doug had mentioned, deinterlacing PAL will go a long way but if quality is of concern to you then use a good deinterlacer like magic bullet which will do more than just interpolate video fields. The built in deinterlacers of software like vegas or premiere do not perform area based deinterlacing which is the best method for retaining maximum resolution. (The reason being only the areas where motion occur are interpolated as opposed to the whole frame) Let me know if you need any help or have questions. __________________ Blog: www.hingsberg.com Ultimate Exposure Guides for FS5/F7S/F5/F55

October 10th, 2004, 07:22 PM	#2
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	Other then camera specific advice, best advice is to shoot it like film. Plan your shots, move your camera with a dolly and or jib. Don't do shaky-cam shots. Learn everything you can about cinematography. The basics of film are the same basics of vid when it comes to shot composition and construction. Plan your lighting. Learn film lighting. Learn about filters and what they can and can't do for you. They can't fix everything but a combo of good lighting and knowing what filters work for specific shots will do amazing things for you. The best advice, specifically on a short film, is to know EVERY SINGLE shot inside and out. Know how you are getting into that shot (cut? dissolve? fade in?) and how you are getting out of it. search around here and you will find all this info. Which editing software are you using? that will determine color correction but good tips are: use a slate with at least black, mid and white bars on it or even better shoot a chip chart or equivalent with each and every shot. I use a slate that has colors across the top and the BMW at the bottom. WHITE BALANCE. Know it, live it, never shoot unless you have done it.

October 11th, 2004, 06:06 AM	#4
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	Actually, that software is available for almost all the major NLE packages like Final Cut Pro, AVID or Premiere... BUT Post production software won't do a darn thing for you if you shoot it like someone's home video. Film look software can only do so much---- you have to make HOW you shoot it look like film

October 12th, 2004, 06:43 PM	#5
Doug Turner Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sydney, Australia. Posts: 43	Fair points Kevin, but Adi says the footage has already been shot. There are plenty of books out there on film language which you should check out before your next shoot - once you know your stuff you can make a crap 1 CCD DV cam look professional. Another thing often overlooked is that you should EDIT like it's a film... don't be tempted by dissolves, 3D swivelling boxes, wipes and picture-in-picture unless it's a wedding or skating video! De-interlacing is very important to get that 'not video look'! The video you shot is probably 50i and NOT 25fps, 50i means 50 fields per second interlaced. Basically, every other line of the picture is updated 50 times a second - all to do with CRT sets... do a search! Films are 24fps... so you want to get as close to this as possible. All you have to do is to deinterlace your 50i footage in Vegas... you'll then get 25fps footage, which is close enough for it to look filmic. That's the joy of shooting in PAL - no mucking around with pulldowns from 60i/30fps to 24fps. Our brains 'see' 24fps as being filmic and 50i as being crap video... easy as that! I dunno why, just does! Check this article out on how to make your footage filmic in Vegas: http://vegas.digitalmedianet.com/art...e.jsp?id=22424 Hope some of that's helped... I made a short last year with a miniDV 3CCD JVC, took lots of care lighting and framing... spent an age editing and sound mixing. I used Magic Bullet (in After Effects) to convert to 25fps and to add filters. My film, "Tender Words", recently won Best Comedy at a festival in the UK and was recently shown at the LA shorts fest last month (was screened with a film shot on super16, and it looked almost as nice, which is good enough for me). Cheers, Doug.

October 13th, 2004, 02:31 AM	#6
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	ok. thanks for the replies. i'll check out the magic bullet package. adi.

October 13th, 2004, 12:29 PM	#7
Kevin Burnfield Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Princeton, NJ Posts: 363	sorry doug... for some reason my brain didn't see that past-tense "shot" part. I either need to stop drinking or drink more.

October 14th, 2004, 12:35 PM	#9
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	dennis, but i'm in tel aviv, israel. PAL land. so no problem there. thanks anyway.

October 15th, 2004, 03:23 AM	#11
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	ok. thanks!!

October 31st, 2004, 11:19 PM	#12
Scott Ellifritt Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: MS Gulf Coast Posts: 146	DV film Maker has a software that will either apply the 24 frame "look" or actually transfer your 60i to 24p. You can try the free download at http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm I didn't see a marked difference with my 60i footage but you might see better results with PAL.