Is 1/25 shutter speed the best solution? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Special Interest Areas > Techniques for Independent Production

Techniques for Independent Production
The challenges of creating Digital Cinema and other narrative forms.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 25th, 2005, 07:40 PM   #1
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 10
Is 1/25 shutter speed the best solution?

Hello,

I am going to shoot my second short next week. I am using Sony PD150 PAL.
Of course I want to get as good filmlook as I can.

Last time I was using slower shutter speed (1/25 sec) to get that "stroboscopic effect" which for me is greatly simulating the film motion. It made the final effect look very filmic.

This time I only want to use "video-looking" shutter speeds (1/50+) in order to save the vertical resolution and to keep the focus at faster camera moves.

I want to get that "stroboscopic" filmlook of 1/25 shutter in postproduction. My question is: HOW TO GET IT? Is there any possibility to get someting VERY similar to 1/25 shutter speed footage with normal interlaced 50i footage?

I've looked through hundreds of posts at dvinfo, I've made many tests. I have both the Magic Bullet 1.1 and DVFilm Maker but their effects don't satisfy me.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but 25p output from these apps looks for me almost exactly like the 50i input.

Or maybe there is just no better solution for getting 25p on PD150 than lower shutter speed?? What do you think?

Thanks.
Mateusz Metelski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2005, 06:35 AM   #2
RED Code Chef
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Holland
Posts: 12,514
If the PD150 can't do 25p (I don't know) then you may have
stumbled across the best solution in your case. In the end what
matters is whether it looks good (enough) for you.

If you are pleased with the look (for the movie), then all is good!
__________________

Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com
DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef

Join the DV Challenge | Lady X

Search DVinfo.net for quick answers | Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors
Rob Lohman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2005, 01:30 PM   #3
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 10
Thanks for reply.

Sony PD150 can't do 25p. It has the option of progressive scan but only at 15fps so it's simply useless.

The 1/25 sec shutter gives an interesting look, but is just difficult to use when shots are more dynamic because it easily runs out of focus giving blurred image.

On the other hand I tried different deinterlacers, but processed footage looks no different for me from the original when played on computer monitor (maybe it would be more 'filmic' when played on pal tv...?)

My question is - what's so unique in lower shutter speed look and how to achieve it in post? Or maybe I can get something better?
Simply - how to get the most of Panasonic DVX100A on Sony PD150P......

I've seen so many great examples of Magic Bullet/DVFilm Maker/etc.. on ntsc footage from cameras without progressive scan.... Who and how achieved such amazing results with equivalent pal gear? It would be silly to do it like this PAL >> NTSC >> 24P >> 25P (?)

Thanks in advance for any advice
Mateusz Metelski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 27th, 2005, 11:28 PM   #4
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,750
Quote:
On the other hand I tried different deinterlacers, but processed footage looks no different for me from the original when played on computer monitor (maybe it would be more 'filmic' when played on pal tv...?)
You absolutely need to see the results on a television that shows interlacing properly.

Hook up your camera to your TV and it will be able to convert from DV-->analog on the fly if you set it up properly.

Quote:
I've seen so many great examples of Magic Bullet/DVFilm Maker/etc.. on ntsc footage from cameras without progressive scan.... Who and how achieved such amazing results with equivalent pal gear?
Film-like motion: 25p would be really close to 24p, so just try de-interlacing your footage. Some de-interlacing algorithms give better vertical resolution than just blending the frames together.

Film-like gamma: Which editing or special effects/compositing program are you using? On many of them, you can use curves to mimic film gamma. If you do a search for curves on this forum you should be able to find out how to do it for your program. Otherwise, just ask for instructions.

There are a whole bunch of things in post you can do to make images look better. There's overlap between this and film look. Magic Bullet Editors is an easy way to get into this, although other methods can do many things MBE cannot (and at much faster render speeds too!). Many programs have MBE looks available for them if you want to take a look.

Lighting: Good lighting is probably the most important thing in making your video look good. Set decoration and costume design also makes a difference unless you're shooting landscapes/exteriors (in which case polarizers and ND grads can help to control the sky's color/exposure).
Glenn Chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2005, 04:08 AM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cardiff, UK
Posts: 221
I wouldn't say the 12,5fps (I'm sure its 12,5 not the 15 you mentioned but I'd have to look it up) progressive mode on the Sony is useless at all. Its perfect for what its designed for - removing proper stills from video images. If you wan't to make an instructional video where you need perfect frame grabs, et voila the PD150 will do that fine. Nobody ever said it was for proper video.
James Connors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2005, 05:19 PM   #6
New Boot
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Chan
You absolutely need to see the results on a television that shows interlacing properly.
Dead right. I'd say your problem is not so much that you're not seeing the "filmic" non-interlaced effect, so much as you're not seeing television-style interlacing in the first place.
Nicholas Storr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2005, 05:32 PM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 493
Standard film shutter speed for 24fps is 1/48 second. 1/25 is way off, 1/50th of PAL is very close. Shoot PAL 50i, deinterlace, and remap it to 24fps, a 4% slow down. That's motion characteristics, not to mention film response curves, depth of field, etc., etc....
Joshua Provost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2005, 07:15 PM   #8
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Wroclaw, Poland
Posts: 10
Thank you guys for all your comments!

I've been working with film-like gamma, set lighting, frame ratios, dof, camera stabilizers for over two years...
....reading, reading, practising and reading again.... (I suppose everyone here does it)

My effects were just fine - enough 'filmic' for me so I was satisfied...
...but what I was always lacking was just this film-like motion dynamics... Since I don't have dvx100 nor xl2, I prefer/I must do it in post.

The best thing for me was to connect pd150 to a tv set via AV cable. You were right, Glenn & Nicholas - the deinterlaced footage MUST be played on an interlaced pal device. It looks untouched by deinterlacing when viewed on a computer monitor.

What I did was
-- to record couple of seconds using standard 1/50 shutter,
-- then I captured&processed (I work on Premiere 6 & After Effects 6) the clip with Magic Bullet 1.1 [MagicBullet+LookSuite+Letterboxer - it took me ages...]
-- and exported it via firewire back to dv tape.
-- Finally I connected the camcorder to a tv and I was really surprised to see how it looked like.

If I wanted the 'bulleted' movie to be on dvd I would capture it again and encode to mpeg2.

I decided to stay with 25p and Magic Bullet. I won't be posterizing time to 24p, Joshua, because 25p looks great for me and is very similar to 24p. The other thing is that slowing down the movie would affect audio.

Again, thanks for great advice.

PS.
James, you were right - 15fps is the proscan mode of NTSC model. PAL has 12,5fps.
Mateusz Metelski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2005, 07:37 PM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: warsaw, poland
Posts: 440
info for mateusz

following info is in polish language. asking mateusz to contact me - i can help him with dvx100.

===============
mateusz,

napisz mi mejla i jakos sie umowimy. ja mam panasonic dvx100 i moze sie jakos uda zrobic zebys mogl z niego skorzystac.

filip
===============
p.s.

sorry guys for this "local language" behaviour, but i beleive that i can help him with my camera.
thank you for understanding.
__________________
in kino (sic!) veritas
Filip Kovcin is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Special Interest Areas > Techniques for Independent Production

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:07 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network