Is 1/25 shutter speed the best solution? at DVinfo.net

Mateusz Metelski · February 25th, 2005, 07:40 PM

Hello,

I am going to shoot my second short next week. I am using Sony PD150 PAL.
Of course I want to get as good filmlook as I can.

Last time I was using slower shutter speed (1/25 sec) to get that "stroboscopic effect" which for me is greatly simulating the film motion. It made the final effect look very filmic.

This time I only want to use "video-looking" shutter speeds (1/50+) in order to save the vertical resolution and to keep the focus at faster camera moves.

I want to get that "stroboscopic" filmlook of 1/25 shutter in postproduction. My question is: HOW TO GET IT? Is there any possibility to get someting VERY similar to 1/25 shutter speed footage with normal interlaced 50i footage?

I've looked through hundreds of posts at dvinfo, I've made many tests. I have both the Magic Bullet 1.1 and DVFilm Maker but their effects don't satisfy me.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but 25p output from these apps looks for me almost exactly like the 50i input.

Or maybe there is just no better solution for getting 25p on PD150 than lower shutter speed?? What do you think?

Thanks.

Rob Lohman · February 26th, 2005, 06:35 AM

If the PD150 can't do 25p (I don't know) then you may have
stumbled across the best solution in your case. In the end what
matters is whether it looks good (enough) for you.

If you are pleased with the look (for the movie), then all is good!

Mateusz Metelski · February 26th, 2005, 01:30 PM

Thanks for reply.

Sony PD150 can't do 25p. It has the option of progressive scan but only at 15fps so it's simply useless.

The 1/25 sec shutter gives an interesting look, but is just difficult to use when shots are more dynamic because it easily runs out of focus giving blurred image.

On the other hand I tried different deinterlacers, but processed footage looks no different for me from the original when played on computer monitor (maybe it would be more 'filmic' when played on pal tv...?)

My question is - what's so unique in lower shutter speed look and how to achieve it in post? Or maybe I can get something better?
Simply - how to get the most of Panasonic DVX100A on Sony PD150P......

I've seen so many great examples of Magic Bullet/DVFilm Maker/etc.. on ntsc footage from cameras without progressive scan.... Who and how achieved such amazing results with equivalent pal gear? It would be silly to do it like this PAL >> NTSC >> 24P >> 25P (?)

Thanks in advance for any advice

Glenn Chan · February 27th, 2005, 11:28 PM

Quote:

On the other hand I tried different deinterlacers, but processed footage looks no different for me from the original when played on computer monitor (maybe it would be more 'filmic' when played on pal tv...?)

You absolutely need to see the results on a television that shows interlacing properly.

Hook up your camera to your TV and it will be able to convert from DV-->analog on the fly if you set it up properly.

Quote:

I've seen so many great examples of Magic Bullet/DVFilm Maker/etc.. on ntsc footage from cameras without progressive scan.... Who and how achieved such amazing results with equivalent pal gear?

Film-like motion: 25p would be really close to 24p, so just try de-interlacing your footage. Some de-interlacing algorithms give better vertical resolution than just blending the frames together.

Film-like gamma: Which editing or special effects/compositing program are you using? On many of them, you can use curves to mimic film gamma. If you do a search for curves on this forum you should be able to find out how to do it for your program. Otherwise, just ask for instructions.

There are a whole bunch of things in post you can do to make images look better. There's overlap between this and film look. Magic Bullet Editors is an easy way to get into this, although other methods can do many things MBE cannot (and at much faster render speeds too!). Many programs have MBE looks available for them if you want to take a look.

Lighting: Good lighting is probably the most important thing in making your video look good. Set decoration and costume design also makes a difference unless you're shooting landscapes/exteriors (in which case polarizers and ND grads can help to control the sky's color/exposure).

James Connors · February 28th, 2005, 04:08 AM

I wouldn't say the 12,5fps (I'm sure its 12,5 not the 15 you mentioned but I'd have to look it up) progressive mode on the Sony is useless at all. Its perfect for what its designed for - removing proper stills from video images. If you wan't to make an instructional video where you need perfect frame grabs, et voila the PD150 will do that fine. Nobody ever said it was for proper video.

Nicholas Storr · February 28th, 2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Glenn Chan
You absolutely need to see the results on a television that shows interlacing properly.

Dead right. I'd say your problem is not so much that you're not seeing the "filmic" non-interlaced effect, so much as you're not seeing television-style interlacing in the first place.

Joshua Provost · February 28th, 2005, 05:32 PM

Standard film shutter speed for 24fps is 1/48 second. 1/25 is way off, 1/50th of PAL is very close. Shoot PAL 50i, deinterlace, and remap it to 24fps, a 4% slow down. That's motion characteristics, not to mention film response curves, depth of field, etc., etc....

Mateusz Metelski · February 28th, 2005, 07:15 PM

Thank you guys for all your comments!

I've been working with film-like gamma, set lighting, frame ratios, dof, camera stabilizers for over two years...
....reading, reading, practising and reading again.... (I suppose everyone here does it)

My effects were just fine - enough 'filmic' for me so I was satisfied...
...but what I was always lacking was just this film-like motion dynamics... Since I don't have dvx100 nor xl2, I prefer/I must do it in post.

The best thing for me was to connect pd150 to a tv set via AV cable. You were right, Glenn & Nicholas - the deinterlaced footage MUST be played on an interlaced pal device. It looks untouched by deinterlacing when viewed on a computer monitor.

What I did was
-- to record couple of seconds using standard 1/50 shutter,
-- then I captured&processed (I work on Premiere 6 & After Effects 6) the clip with Magic Bullet 1.1 [MagicBullet+LookSuite+Letterboxer - it took me ages...]
-- and exported it via firewire back to dv tape.
-- Finally I connected the camcorder to a tv and I was really surprised to see how it looked like.

If I wanted the 'bulleted' movie to be on dvd I would capture it again and encode to mpeg2.

I decided to stay with 25p and Magic Bullet. I won't be posterizing time to 24p, Joshua, because 25p looks great for me and is very similar to 24p. The other thing is that slowing down the movie would affect audio.

Again, thanks for great advice.

PS.
James, you were right - 15fps is the proscan mode of NTSC model. PAL has 12,5fps.

Filip Kovcin · February 28th, 2005, 07:37 PM

following info is in polish language. asking mateusz to contact me - i can help him with dvx100.

===============
mateusz,

napisz mi mejla i jakos sie umowimy. ja mam panasonic dvx100 i moze sie jakos uda zrobic zebys mogl z niego skorzystac.

filip
===============
p.s.

sorry guys for this "local language" behaviour, but i beleive that i can help him with my camera.
thank you for understanding.

February 25th, 2005, 07:40 PM	#1
Mateusz Metelski New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wroclaw, Poland Posts: 10	Is 1/25 shutter speed the best solution? Hello, I am going to shoot my second short next week. I am using Sony PD150 PAL. Of course I want to get as good filmlook as I can. Last time I was using slower shutter speed (1/25 sec) to get that "stroboscopic effect" which for me is greatly simulating the film motion. It made the final effect look very filmic. This time I only want to use "video-looking" shutter speeds (1/50+) in order to save the vertical resolution and to keep the focus at faster camera moves. I want to get that "stroboscopic" filmlook of 1/25 shutter in postproduction. My question is: HOW TO GET IT? Is there any possibility to get someting VERY similar to 1/25 shutter speed footage with normal interlaced 50i footage? I've looked through hundreds of posts at dvinfo, I've made many tests. I have both the Magic Bullet 1.1 and DVFilm Maker but their effects don't satisfy me. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but 25p output from these apps looks for me almost exactly like the 50i input. Or maybe there is just no better solution for getting 25p on PD150 than lower shutter speed?? What do you think? Thanks.

February 26th, 2005, 06:35 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	If the PD150 can't do 25p (I don't know) then you may have stumbled across the best solution in your case. In the end what matters is whether it looks good (enough) for you. If you are pleased with the look (for the movie), then all is good! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

February 28th, 2005, 07:37 PM	#9
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	info for mateusz following info is in polish language. asking mateusz to contact me - i can help him with dvx100. =============== mateusz, napisz mi mejla i jakos sie umowimy. ja mam panasonic dvx100 i moze sie jakos uda zrobic zebys mogl z niego skorzystac. filip =============== p.s. sorry guys for this "local language" behaviour, but i beleive that i can help him with my camera. thank you for understanding. __________________ in kino (sic!) veritas

February 26th, 2005, 01:30 PM	#3
Mateusz Metelski New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wroclaw, Poland Posts: 10	Thanks for reply. Sony PD150 can't do 25p. It has the option of progressive scan but only at 15fps so it's simply useless. The 1/25 sec shutter gives an interesting look, but is just difficult to use when shots are more dynamic because it easily runs out of focus giving blurred image. On the other hand I tried different deinterlacers, but processed footage looks no different for me from the original when played on computer monitor (maybe it would be more 'filmic' when played on pal tv...?) My question is - what's so unique in lower shutter speed look and how to achieve it in post? Or maybe I can get something better? Simply - how to get the most of Panasonic DVX100A on Sony PD150P...... I've seen so many great examples of Magic Bullet/DVFilm Maker/etc.. on ntsc footage from cameras without progressive scan.... Who and how achieved such amazing results with equivalent pal gear? It would be silly to do it like this PAL >> NTSC >> 24P >> 25P (?) Thanks in advance for any advice

February 28th, 2005, 04:08 AM	#5
James Connors Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cardiff, UK Posts: 223	I wouldn't say the 12,5fps (I'm sure its 12,5 not the 15 you mentioned but I'd have to look it up) progressive mode on the Sony is useless at all. Its perfect for what its designed for - removing proper stills from video images. If you wan't to make an instructional video where you need perfect frame grabs, et voila the PD150 will do that fine. Nobody ever said it was for proper video.

February 28th, 2005, 05:32 PM	#7
Joshua Provost Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 493	Standard film shutter speed for 24fps is 1/48 second. 1/25 is way off, 1/50th of PAL is very close. Shoot PAL 50i, deinterlace, and remap it to 24fps, a 4% slow down. That's motion characteristics, not to mention film response curves, depth of field, etc., etc....

February 28th, 2005, 07:15 PM	#8
Mateusz Metelski New Boot Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Wroclaw, Poland Posts: 10	Thank you guys for all your comments! I've been working with film-like gamma, set lighting, frame ratios, dof, camera stabilizers for over two years... ....reading, reading, practising and reading again.... (I suppose everyone here does it) My effects were just fine - enough 'filmic' for me so I was satisfied... ...but what I was always lacking was just this film-like motion dynamics... Since I don't have dvx100 nor xl2, I prefer/I must do it in post. The best thing for me was to connect pd150 to a tv set via AV cable. You were right, Glenn & Nicholas - the deinterlaced footage MUST be played on an interlaced pal device. It looks untouched by deinterlacing when viewed on a computer monitor. What I did was -- to record couple of seconds using standard 1/50 shutter, -- then I captured&processed (I work on Premiere 6 & After Effects 6) the clip with Magic Bullet 1.1 [MagicBullet+LookSuite+Letterboxer - it took me ages...] -- and exported it via firewire back to dv tape. -- Finally I connected the camcorder to a tv and I was really surprised to see how it looked like. If I wanted the 'bulleted' movie to be on dvd I would capture it again and encode to mpeg2. I decided to stay with 25p and Magic Bullet. I won't be posterizing time to 24p, Joshua, because 25p looks great for me and is very similar to 24p. The other thing is that slowing down the movie would affect audio. Again, thanks for great advice. PS. James, you were right - 15fps is the proscan mode of NTSC model. PAL has 12,5fps.